Re: VinCrypt

Even as a former 'hacker' myself, the second to last person I would
trust not to install a backdoor (next to the NSA) is a hacker.

In addition, merely having been a systems hacker hardly qualifies
one for writing complex crypto software.  Without any assurance as
to the authors' qualifications for writing a crypto package, or
their integrity.  Even if I could trust their integrity, I'm very
leery of black-box software.

----
Robert W. Clark             Just Say No! to the
rclark@nyx.cs.du.edu        Big Brother Chip

> 
> Even as a former 'hacker' myself, the second to last person I would
> trust not to install a backdoor (next to the NSA) is a hacker.
> 
> In addition, merely having been a systems hacker hardly qualifies
> one for writing complex crypto software.  Without any assurance as
> to the authors' qualifications for writing a crypto package, or
> their integrity.  Even if I could trust their integrity, I'm very
> leery of black-box software.

I think the line about "not trusting DES or RSA because those algorithms have
been given to the NSA"  about says it all.

-- 
Ian S. Nelson			I speak for only myself.	
Finger for my PGP key.  
If you are a beautiful woman, it is mandatory that you reply to this message.

> Even as a former 'hacker' myself, the second to last person I would
> trust not to install a backdoor (next to the NSA) is a hacker.

Are you meaning to imply that there is a backdoor in this package?  If so, how
do you justify this claim?  

> In addition, merely having been a systems hacker hardly qualifies
> one for writing complex crypto software.  Without any assurance as
> to the authors' qualifications for writing a crypto package, or
> their integrity.  Even if I could trust their integrity, I'm very
> leery of black-box software.

You seem to know something about them that I do not.  Care to share your 
knowledge?  Thanx in advance.
+-----------------------+-----------------------------+---------+
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| (505) 299-2282        +-----------------------------+---------+
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+-----If codes are outlawed, only criminals wil have codes.-----+
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> > In addition, merely having been a systems hacker hardly qualifies
> > one for writing complex crypto software.  Without any assurance as
> > to the authors' qualifications for writing a crypto package, or
> > their integrity.  Even if I could trust their integrity, I'm very
> > leery of black-box software.
> 
> You seem to know something about them that I do not.  Care to share your 
> knowledge?  Thanx in advance.

Oh, come on.

Every decent cryptoweenie knows that you don't trust black box
cryptography software. Most amateurs (and the average person writing
crypto code is NOT a professional cryptographer) have no idea of what
they are doing and produce crap. If you don't know how the program you
are buying works, odds are that its one of the majority of programs,
i.e. its crap.

Throughout the last two thousand years, fools, often individuals who
were otherwise rather intelligent, have repeatedly invented new
cryptosystems over and over again which were completely worthless.
Indeed, virtually everyone thinks that they know enough to build a new
cryptosystem -- and virtually no one has bothered to learn how real
cryptosystems are broken.

This even bites the best of us. Phil Zimmermann tells the story of how
he once invented a cryptosystem only to open up a college text on
cryptography and see that the problem of breaking his new cryptosystem
was so trivial that it was a homework exercise at the end of the first
chapter.

I, for one, will never use any crypto system for which the algorithm
hasn't been extensively published and scrutinized.

Perry

>This even bites the best of us. Phil Zimmermann [...]

PGP 1.0 had Phil's Bass-o-matic cipher, which he subsequently dropped.
When I first saw that, I thought to myself, "snake oil," but not in
those words.  I'm glad that lesson got learned.

>I, for one, will never use any crypto system for which the algorithm
>hasn't been extensively published and scrutinized.

I am in total agreement.

Eric

This raises a question...  I don't think this has been addressed yet (I
am a bit behind in my mail) and might be worthwhile putting in the FAQ...

If I just dreamed up a new gee whiz "new" cypher, should I post it to the
list for comments, or is this frowned on?  (As it happens, I happen to
have what I **think** is a new approach to cyphering, and the answer to this
question will determine wheter anyone hears about it or not...)

Is there a comprehensive list of short "already been done" types of
cyphers?  (Whether failed or "still" succesful.)  A good book?

---
Nick MacDonald               | NMD on IRC
i6t4@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca  | PGP 2.1 Public key available via finger


On Fri, 28 May 1993, Eric Hughes wrote:

> >I, for one, will never use any crypto system for which the algorithm
> >hasn't been extensively published and scrutinized.
> 
> I am in total agreement.

>> If I just dreamed up a new gee whiz "new" cypher, should I post it to the
>> list for comments, or is this frowned on?  (As it happens, I happen to
>> have what I **think** is a new approach to cyphering, and the answer to this
>> question will determine wheter anyone hears about it or not...)

This list is, IMHO, for the discussion of privacy enforced by
technology in the hands of the user..  New approaches (like remailers
or money algorithms) are within the domain of this group.  New
encryption algorithms are better discussed in the newsgroup sci.crypt.

I admit that I'm a bit skeptical.  So far, every new encryption scheme
someone has proposed here has either been trivially defeated, or done
before.  I'm tired of showing how most schemes are reducible to a
one-time pad or codebook :-)

In any case, I think there are more experienced cryptographers on
sci.crypt than on this list, but I could be wrong.

		Marc

Nickey MacDonald says:
> This raises a question...  I don't think this has been addressed yet (I
> am a bit behind in my mail) and might be worthwhile putting in the FAQ...
> 
> If I just dreamed up a new gee whiz "new" cypher, should I post it to the
> list for comments, or is this frowned on?  (As it happens, I happen to
> have what I **think** is a new approach to cyphering, and the answer to this
> question will determine wheter anyone hears about it or not...)

My suggestion is this.

Its perfectly appropriate to post the cypher to the list PROVIDED you
take the right attitude, which is to say something like:

"The following is something I just thought up. I'm not a pro, and I
worry that this thing has holes. Anyone care to give me hints on what
they might be?"

My objection has never been to people developing new cypher systems.
Its always been to people claiming, in the absense of very strong
attempts to break their system, that their system is secure. Provided
you aren't trying to encourage people to use a new system you are
developing, what harm can discussing it possibly do? On the other
hand, great harm can be caused by fools pushing systems they have
designed in the absense of expertise -- that was specifically the sort
of objection I had to the whole "Dolphin Encrypt" thing.

Sci.crypt is likely a better place to post a query about a new cypher,
of course.

> Is there a comprehensive list of short "already been done" types of
> cyphers?  (Whether failed or "still" succesful.)  A good book?

I would suggest looking in the sci.crypt FAQ -- its got lots of good
intro material and reading lists.

Perry

Perry Metzger writes on the matter of posting newly-invented ciphers
to the Cypherpunks list:

> My suggestion is this.
> 
> Its perfectly appropriate to post the cypher to the list PROVIDED you
> take the right attitude, which is to say something like:
> 
> "The following is something I just thought up. I'm not a pro, and I
> worry that this thing has holes. Anyone care to give me hints on what
> they might be?"

Good advice! Some hubris might pique the interest of readers.

> Sci.crypt is likely a better place to post a query about a new cypher,
> of course.

Yes, except that they for the most part hate it when folks post "I
dare you to break my new cipher" messages. Understandably so, for the
reasons Perry gave (smugness, etc.) and also because:

a. usually not enough ciphertext can be posted to allow a reasonable
cryptanalysis

b. the odds of a newbie inventing something really new are slim (yes,
it _may_ happen, but it's not likely)

c. people have better things to do that spend hours or days trying to
break a system which has these problems (and may just be deliberate
garbage).

(Cryptanalysis is economics, as some folks like to say. If a message
is important, or a particular cryptosystem has passed some initial
tests--such as the algorithm being published, the basic mathematics
presented as plausible, etc.--then more effort can be justified. But
not on Joe Cipher's latest effort.)

(this quote is from Nicky M.)

> > Is there a comprehensive list of short "already been done" types of
> > cyphers?  (Whether failed or "still" succesful.)  A good book?

Kahn's "The Codebreakers" for a historical perspective, the various
crypto books referred to here for mathematical background (Denning,
Brassard, Salomaa, Simmons, Patterson, etc.), and "Cryptologia" for
insights into amateur cryptanalysis and cipher-building.

Be aware that most amateurs--and I hardly speak from experience, just
reading of the literature--end up reinventing the old _types_ of
ciphers....the new ones, with s-boxes, or based on hard math problems
(like RSA), typically require a lot of background in math.

Hope this helps, and hope this eases any hard feelings folks may have
when their Super Duper Encrypter is not analyzed by a dozen
Cypherpunks. Or even one.

-Tim May 

-- 
..........................................................................
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Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.

>  (As it happens, I happen to
>have what I **think** is a new approach to cyphering, 

Post away.  If you upload a copy of the source to the directory
pub/cypherpunks/incoming on the ftp site, I'll make it available to
everyone.

I would like to see this regardless of whether it actually is secure.
It is a well-founded maxim that no one should design a cipher without
having broken a few first.  There is a need, apropos of training the
desginers, for insecure ciphers, not so they can be deployed, but so
that other insecure ciphers will not be.

Eric