8 expanded posts ยท every known parent and child
Seems to me that now might be a good time to get a list together of all
encryption related patents and when they expire. Unless someone already
has such a list, I will compile and repost any info sent to me.
--
Nick MacDonald | NMD on IRC
i6t4@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca | PGP 2.1 Public key available via finger
i6t4@unb.ca | (506) 457-1931 ^{1024/746EBB 1993/02/23}>Seems to me that now might be a good time to get a list together of all >encryption related patents and when they expire. As much as we need this, we also need the actual text of the patents. What a patent actually covers is often much narrower than what is claimed. >Unless someone already >has such a list, I will compile and repost any info sent to me. The experience of others trying to gather such information as this is that you have to be proactive if you expect to get anything done. Waiting for people to send you stuff is an exercise in patience. Eric
Eric Hughes writes: > As much as we need this, we also need the actual text of the patents. > What a patent actually covers is often much narrower than what is > claimed. Anyone near a federal patent repository can easily get this information. Walk in, find the patent by number, have the nice attendant print it out on a crappy photostat machine, pay in cash, leave. No written record! Rice U. has a nice staff. (I don't know where the west coast ones are.)
J. Eric Townsend writes: > Anyone near a federal patent repository can easily get this > information. Walk in, find the patent by number, have the nice > attendant print it out on a crappy photostat machine, pay in cash, > leave. No written record! Rice U. has a nice staff. (I don't know > where the west coast ones are.) Sunnyvale, CA. Near the public library off Mathilda Ave. -Tim -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.
Full text of patents and claims are available (for a fee) from Dialog Information Systems on-line. Subscribers can access it in file 654. If there are particular patents that are important and that we need full text versions of quickly, I can oblige. Also extremely useful is the cross-indexing and forward references, so that you can find all patents, e.g., which reference a particular patent as prior art.
>Sunnyvale, CA. Near the public library off Mathilda Ave. Do they have electronic access at this library, or is it paper only? I know they have a fax service for which they charge, but is there downloadable text available? As much as we need the text of the patents, we also need to gather them in electronic form. I thank those who have offered to do so. Eric
Eric Hughes writes:
> As much as we need this, we also need the actual text of the patents.
> What a patent actually covers is often much narrower than what is
> claimed.
And J. Eric Townsend adds:
> Anyone near a federal patent repository can easily get this
> information. Walk in, find the patent by number, have the nice
> attendant print it out on a crappy photostat machine, pay in cash,
> leave. No written record! Rice U. has a nice staff. (I don't know
> where the west coast ones are.)
Ah, the things we put up with in New York... the friendly attendants
at the FPR run by the New York Public Library will happily change your bills
into nickels and quarters so you can print it from microfilm yourself at
$0.30 per page...
But, they have a free dialup to the PTO's online "USPAT" database, which I
have been using for the past few months. I will be there using the system
sometime during the week of June 22. It would certainly be possible for me
to capture abstracts, legal info (assignees etc.), etc. on a floppy and
transfer it to the c-punks archive. Depending on how busy the library happens
to be, I might also be able to get the fulltext of claims, and even maybe the
full disclosure statement, for a limited number of patents (it takes a *long*
time to download, and anything but citations is considered bad etiquette if
anyone is waiting for the single terminal).
I am willing to do this (time permitting, of course), if:
(1) a person of credibility can assure me that I am not violating any
copyright or other legislation by doing so.
(2) one or more cypherpunks takes responsibility for gathering and
summarizing a list of pertinent patent numbers, and keywords for
further searching (which can include any word in the fulltext,
inventor's name, assignee's name, etc.)
- JJThe main rationale behind granting patent monopoly is for the
disclosure of the technique to the public. As such, patents are
public record. There is no danger of violating copyright by
publishing patents, already public information.
Here is RSADSI's patent portfolio:
Public Key Cryptographic Apparatus and Method
("Hellman-Merkle") No. 4,315,552
Exponential Cryptographic Apparatus and Method
("Hellman-Pohlig") No. 4,434,414
Cryptographic Apparatus and Method
("Diffie-Hellman") No. 4,200,770
Cryptographic Communications System and Method
("Rivest-Shamir-Adelman") No. 4,405,829
Method For Identifying Subscribers And For Generating And Verifying
Electronic Signatures In A Data Exchange System
("Schnorr") No. 4,995,082
In my own opinion, the RSA and DH patents are relatively strong, given
that they cover particular algorithms and not whole classes of
techniques. The key word here is relative; they might not hold
themselves, but they are certainly much more likely to hold that some
of their others.
PKP makes the following statement. This is right out of RFC-1421, one
of the Privacy Enhanced Mail (PEM) documents.
"These patents are stated by PKP to cover all known methods of
practicing the art of Public Key encryption, including the variations
collectively known as El Gamal."
It is my opinion that this statement is false, and not only false, but
an improper extension of patent monopoly.
The weakest link is the Hellman-Merkle patent, which PKP uses to claim
all public key cryptography. Public key cryptography as such is
certainly not patentable, since it is merely a collection of
characteristics of specific systems; public key cryptography is not a
specific process or method, but a collection of such processes and
methods. Only specifics are patentable. Public key cryptography is
an idea, and ideas are not patentable.
The next weakest link is the Hellman-Pohlig patent, which is, I
believe, that which PKP uses to claim that all uses of the discrete
log problem (e.g. El-Gamal) are also covered. Here again, the use of
an item without reference to a specific process or machine is not
patentable. The specific use of exponentiation in the H-P patent is
for an RSA pseudofield (i.e. mod pq), but with exponent two.
As such, if we are going to prioritize patents, I would gather them in
the order indicated. As far as doing forward references, The H-M
patent is likely the most interesting, since it will lead to many
other patent public key ciphers. The RSA patent is likely the next,
because it is so widely known and mathematically simple.
Eric