ANON: remail abuse

Earlier, Chris Odner brought up some concerns about abusing anonymous
remailers.  (I deleted the message before saving it, so I can't quote
from it).

He mentioned his friend is getting abusive mail, probably from telnet to
the smtp port, and then mentions the "remailers are perfect for those
who would harrass and abuse others."  Wait a second... here is an
example of harrassment right now, without anything to do with the
remailers!  I mean, if you want to really hassle somebody, you could
just wait patiently until someone leaves their machine for a few seconds
and type

sh (or ksh)
while true 
do
uuencode /vmunix irritate | mail somebody@somewhere
done

followed with a

clear

and then leave quickly.

I guess I'm one of those people who would get upset and blame the person
responsible for the action instead of software and/or technological
advancement for possible providing a means.

As Peter mentioned, payphones are already perfect for harrassment.  So
is junk mail... and the crucial thing here is these services cost money.
I'm sure future remailers will incorporate digital cash and be a
pay-for-each-remail service.

Chris also mentions concers about distributing porn and stuff like that
through remailers.  I guess this could be done, but why give up the
speed and convenience of ftp, fsp, irc (dcc), and usenet posting?  These
services distribute files faster and further than remailing.

/-----------------------------------\
| Karl L. Barrus                    |
| elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu             | <- preferred address
| barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) |
\-----------------------------------/

> I guess I'm one of those people who would get upset and blame the person
> responsible for the action instead of software and/or technological
> advancement for possible providing a means.

I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I also am blameing the
person, not the technology, and I am merely worried about the response
people may use if this becomes more commonplace.

> As Peter mentioned, payphones are already perfect for harrassment.  So
> is junk mail... and the crucial thing here is these services cost money.
> I'm sure future remailers will incorporate digital cash and be a
> pay-for-each-remail service.

I'm sure that would be a big help, although I'm not literate enough yet in
the area of digital cash to understand how this would work.

> Chris also mentions concers about distributing porn and stuff like that
> through remailers.  I guess this could be done, but why give up the

I'm not concerned in particular with porn etc, that just happens to be the
problem in this instance.



> /-----------------------------------\
> | Karl L. Barrus                    |
> | elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu             | <- preferred address
> | barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) |
> \-----------------------------------/
> 

Happy Hunting, -Chris Odhner
<cdodhner@indirect.com>

> I'm sure that would be a big help, although I'm not literate enough yet in
> the area of digital cash to understand how this would work.

Okay - actually, you don't need to be very familiar with digital cash
at all.  Just think of a cash accepting remailer as one in which you
are charged a fee for each use.  Similar to postage stamps and postal
mail.  When you want to use a digital cash accepting remailer, you
would first purchase some postage stamps, certificates, however you
want to think of it.  Then, you attach the cash/stamp/certificate to
the mail (maybe by a special header field), and send it to the
remailer.  Your mail would probably be encrypted as well to keep
others from spying on your cash, altering it (rendering it invalid)
and using it for themselves.  The remailer would validate your cash,
probably store it in a file to prevent multiple uses, and then forward
your mail to wherever.

The digital cash part just means electronic forms of payment which
have cash properties.  Say you purchase something with cash.  The
merchant can't link your identity to the cash, and later when the
merchant deposits cash in a bank, the bank cannot link the cash to
your transactions with the merchant.  But the merchant can verify the
cash is valid, and the bank can too.  Furthermore, you can't spend the
same piece of cash twice.

This is confusing to think about without being familiar with modern
crypto; one of these days I shall finish a digital cash application
I've been working on for people to play with.

/-----------------------------------\
| Karl L. Barrus                    |
| elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu             | <- preferred address
| barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) |
\-----------------------------------/

Just another lurker, speaking up for the first time. . . .

elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu (Karl Barrus) writes:

[...first, an example of how to harrass without a remailer, then:]

| I guess I'm one of those people who would get upset and blame the person
| responsible for the action instead of software and/or technological
| advancement for possible providing a means.

While I tend to agree with you on this point, the fact remains that most
people, by and large, are idiots.  And while I'm a closet libertarian at heart,
this one simple fact of life gives me pause on a number of issues where some
potentially useful and/or fun object can be put to extreme nastiness without
much (or any) knowledge or imagination:  firearms, poisons, neurotoxins,
gamma-ray sources, genetic-engineering kits . . . and anonymous remailers.

| As Peter mentioned, payphones are already perfect for harrassment.  So
| is junk mail... and the crucial thing here is these services cost money.
| I'm sure future remailers will incorporate digital cash and be a
| pay-for-each-remail service.

Oh, big deal.  Payphone = 25c.  Junk mail = 29c for *first-class* harrassment
mail.  :)  Anonymous E-mail remailers = something much less, or free at the
moment.

Money is *not* the issue.  Period.

The reason anonymous remailers are not the same as payphones or junk mail is
that the latter two leave tangible clues behind.  While I'm not entirely happy
with the US justice system, it seems to me that given society's current
limitations, a police force of some sort is generally a good thing (if strict
controls are kept on it).  (Sorry, I realize that this is a bit of a fringe
opinion in *this* group, but. . . .)  Both payphones and mail leave tangible
clues which can be investigated and traced by law enforcement authorities.
Anonymous mail doesn't---at least, not without actually running a process or a
logger on the machine itself.

So they're *not* equivalent.

| Chris also mentions concers about distributing porn and stuff like that
| through remailers.  I guess this could be done, but why give up the speed and
| convenience of ftp, fsp, irc (dcc), and usenet posting?  These services
| distribute files faster and further than remailing.

But not as anonymously, except in the case of Usenet postings.

				---Ken McGlothlen
				   mcglk@cpac.washington.edu
				   mcglk@cpac.bitnet

> potentially useful and/or fun object can be put to extreme nastiness without
> much (or any) knowledge or imagination:  firearms, poisons

Perhaps the government should quit selling these items to third world
countries.

> Oh, big deal.  Payphone = 25c.  Junk mail = 29c for *first-class*
> harrassment mail.  :) Anonymous E-mail remailers = something much
> less, or free at the moment.
 
> Money is *not* the issue.  Period.

I think it is a large factor.  It boils down to control.  I could get
my own domain from UUNET and ship megs of junk mail, but I'm probably
not going to do that since I would PAY for it all.  You think your
email is "free" since the associated cost is hidden in your school
fees.

> The reason anonymous remailers are not the same as payphones or junk
> mail is that the latter two leave tangible clues behind.

Yeah, but the clues that a payphone call or junk mail leave are nearly
worthless.  I mean, I could do a "pot shot" attack on somebody, one
time only, and there is no way I could be tracked, unless I were
observed at the time.

Just curious, but what makes e-mail so different to you?  E-mail
reaches thousands of people all over the world, but so does postal
mail.  E-mail is usually quick, and so is a phone call.  Anonymous
mail is harder to trace to the sender; a phone call from a payphone is
harder to trace to the caller.

Is it the combination of these items?

These remailers are just experimental!

> opinion in *this* group, but. . . .)  Both payphones and mail leave tangible
> clues which can be investigated and traced by law enforcement authorities.

Sendmail activity is generally logged in the syslog file.  Anonymous
mailers make is more difficult to determine the true destination.

You would have to repeatedly use the same payphone or mailbox, to
leave tangible clues