Digicash

>From hughes@toad.com Sun Aug 22 20:06:38 1993
>To: plmoses@unix.cc.emory.edu (Paul L. Moses)
>Subject: [plmoses@unix.cc.emory.edu (Paul L. Moses): Digicash....I think]
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 17:06:29 -0700
>From: hughes@toad.com
>
>Mail to owner-cypherpunks goes to the bounce box, where it gets looked
>at occasionally.  Mail to cypherpunks@toad.com to send to the whole list.
>
>Eric
>
>------- Forwarded Message
>
>Return-Path: plmoses@unix.cc.emory.edu
>Received: from emoryu1.cc.emory.edu ([128.140.1.1]) by toad.com id AA06687; Fri, 20 Aug 93 19:36:07 PDT
>Received: by
>	emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_cc.3.4.6) via MAILPROG
>	id AA19400 ; Fri, 20 Aug 93 23:49:26 -0400
>Return-Path: plmoses@unix.cc.emory.edu
>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 93 23:49:26 -0400
>From: plmoses@unix.cc.emory.edu (Paul L. Moses)
>Message-Id: <9308210349.AA19400@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu>
>To: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Digicash....I think
>
>
>I hesitate to mention this, since I have *NO* idea of any of the mathematics
>behind the digicash articles you all have mention....BUT...
>
>I was out running errands today and used my ATM card for a cash purchase.
>This led me to think, aha, I could simply get this card "charged" every
>so often with another denomination ($20, $50, $200, $2000, whatever) and
>go around spending my money without the Store having to phone in the transaction.  This raises a couple of thought in my mind, namely
>	1)  Reverse the function of current ATM units, ie use them to 
>"charge" (as in, activate, add money to) the BANK CARD, rather than the 
>opposite that we do now...
>	2)  Find some way to ensure that the card itself does not contain
>an identifier, so that the user is not recorded during the transaction.
>	3)  The card then becomes a bearer instrument of sorts.  No big deal;
>IT'S JUST LIKE MONEY.  People have to be careful with money, so they ought
>to be careful with these things too.  You could still probably use PIN #s
>(personal code), since they're pretty generic and can be selected and
>changed by the end user himself....whoops no, on second thought, not unless
>the user can encode the PIN himself.  Hmm.  I dunno.  PIN could be OK as long
>as it was never recorded in the transaction, but there's the danger of the
>transaction program taking a look surreptitiously...
>
>	4) Digicash exists already.  I buy a copy card at the library and
>put money onto it, then use it at will in the copy machines.  If I lose the
>card, I'm outta luck, cos anyone who finds it can use it.  Primitive, single
>function, but basically what this is about, I think?
>
>So, what I'm trying to say is that it is possible now to do this, without
>any huge breakthrough or legal innovations.  If I have missed something obvious,
>please enlighten me (gently!).
>
>- -Paul
>
>------- End of Forwarded Message
>
>

Paul Moses:
>	3)  The [ATM] card then becomes a bearer instrument of sorts.  
>       No big deal; IT'S JUST LIKE MONEY.

It is a big deal.  Many people like carrying ID-based
cards (ATM w/PIN, credit cards, etc.) so they aren't easy targets for 
violent thieves.  Although this reaches equlilibrium -- as long as most 
people use credit cards instead of cash, a few of us can still carry 
around cash as long as we don't wave it around too much.  Targets of 
opportunity these days include late-night ATM customers.

Query: what will be the last businesses to install ATM terminals?
A couple that come to mind right away:

* rural businesses (poor net access)
* pawn shops (desire for privacy -- though I continue to be
amazed how many people create dossiers on themselves by 
calling 1-900 phone sex numbers, renting X-rated vids with
credit card, etc.)

Nick Szabo				szabo@netcom.com

In <9308230604.AA26451@netcom4.netcom.com> szabo@netcom.com (Nick Szabo) writes:

>It is a big deal.  Many people like carrying ID-based
>cards (ATM w/PIN, credit cards, etc.) so they aren't easy targets for 
>violent thieves.  Although this reaches equlilibrium -- as long as most 
>people use credit cards instead of cash, a few of us can still carry 
>around cash as long as we don't wave it around too much.  Targets of 
>opportunity these days include late-night ATM customers.

ATM cards w/pin are *already* bearer instruments.  Likewise credit cards for
ATM transactions and for those credit transactions (small stuff) where other
ID is not checked.

Most people use cash instead of credit cards.  Something like 60-75% of in 
person transactions are still in cash.  Many of the balance are via checks.
40% of the population still has no plastic and 20% don't even have checking
accounts.

Duncan Frissell

Sorry for any problems.  Learning to use Helldiver packets.  Anyone know a
Windows reader for Helldiver packets (they are called something else too)?