nada

Some comments on the relationship between anarchy and
privacy: 

1.  There have been some recent posts suggesting that 
    privacy is not fundamentally subversive of 
    government, and that cypherpunks should emphasize  
    the privacy and keep quite about the anarchy.  I 
    find these arguments disingenuous in the extreme, 
    and strategically unsound as well. 

2.  Cypherpunks believe that privacy is fundamentally 
    subversive.  Come on, folks, whom do you want 
    privacy FROM, if not your own government?  
    Otherwise there's no logical objection to the 
    key-escrow, trust-big-brother schemes. 

3.  The government has shown by its behavior that it 
    believes that privacy is fundamentally subversive.

4.  I personally find privacy, in itself, only mildly 
    interesting.  As a tool to undermine the government, 
    I find it VERY EXCITING INDEED.

5.  Cypherpunks' mission is to evangelize the use of 
    privacy.  Sell the sizzle, not the steak!  Privacy
    is the steak.  The sizzle is the possibility of 
    GETTING AWAY WITH SOMETHING.


> 1.  There have been some recent posts suggesting that 
>     privacy is not fundamentally subversive of 
>     government, and that cypherpunks should emphasize  
>     the privacy and keep quite about the anarchy.  I 
>     find these arguments disingenuous in the extreme, 
>     and strategically unsound as well. 
no doubt....I have a question for everyone though. How does anarchy
deal with justice and who would be the ones to provide this service. 
Because lets face it we all have days some more that others where we need
recourse..be it a dispute on your VISA b/c some @#T$#@$ warezhouse mailed you some crappy stuff and still won't give you back your money...

For me the decline of West. Civ. started when Blanche was raped by Stanley in 
_Streetcar_named_DESIRE_ by Tn. Williams...but to get back to my point
...hmmm what was it...oh!!!

The last vestiges of our gubbamess will be the judicial system
...beacuse we all have those days...

Also is society outside of our Ivory tower cases with twin cooling fans ready
for an anarchical harmony???
> 
> 2.  Cypherpunks believe that privacy is fundamentally 
>     subversive.  Come on, folks, whom do you want 
>     privacy FROM, if not your own government?  
>     Otherwise there's no logical objection to the 
>     key-escrow, trust-big-brother schemes. 
Bzzztt.. the internet is becoming a great place for commerce and trade concerns
to get up wit' each other...Trade Secrets and financial records need to be
protected from reverse-engineers who cannot think up a creative idea for them-
selves so they will steal it. Granted the IRS will soon be peeing in its empty
pants pockets to keep them full...but trade is another reason for crypts.
And not this reconstituted clipper shit the E.C. is toying with right now.
> 
> 3.  The government has shown by its behavior that it 
>     believes that privacy is fundamentally subversive.

It is isn't it? see #1
    
     ...vi sucks...kk > 
> 4.  I personally find privacy, in itself, only mildly 
>     interesting.  As a tool to undermine the government, 
>     I find it VERY EXCITING INDEED.
> 
> 5.  Cypherpunks' mission is to evangelize the use of 
>     privacy.  Sell the sizzle, not the steak!  Privacy
>     is the steak.  The sizzle is the possibility of 
>     GETTING AWAY WITH SOMETHING.
> 
> 
kudos...


Loki on a mosquito ridden convex mired in a swamp never to be salvaged...except by da cajuns....

loki@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu asks:
> no doubt....I have a question for everyone though. How does anarchy
> deal with justice and who would be the ones to provide this service. 

This is completely beyond the scope of Cypherpunks -- this isn't a
list about anarchism, its a list about cryptographic privacy. I'll
gladly suggest a few books for you, though...

"The Machinery of Freedom" by David Friedman (yes, THAT Friedman's son).
"The Enterprise of Law: Justice without the State" by Bruce Benson

Both are likely available from Laissez Faire books, at 800-326-0996.
They have a free catalog. 

Benson's book is a thick, detailed and scholarly work that
concentrates solely on legal and judicial systems. Friedman's work is
a light survey of all sorts of libertarian and anarchist topics, from
monetary systems to a discussion of private judicial practice in
medieval Iceland.

Having presented some references, I suggest we now abandon the topic
of anarchism -- it isn't the purpose of this list. I think its
appropriate that people like me not hide our positions, but thats very
different from discussing them in an inappropriate place. There are
lots of discussion groups on the net for propertarian anarchists to
chat in -- and this is a list for cryptography.

Perry