distributed autonomous networks

Hi guys,
   well, after reading through the backlog of spread spectrum stuff, I was
surprised to read about the radio-network-on-a-board (Julieboard) article
that someone posted. A couple of us here in Australia have been kicking
around the idea of a cheap network, running via repeaters in _very_
small boxes tossed all around a city, which would be indestructible through
sheer numbers (a la the arpanet).
   So: anyone got any ideas, schematics, information?

The main idea is a huge number of small, low-power and CHEAP nodes which
would handle through traffic which anyone with a radio modem could tap into,
with the nodes disguised and placed in extremely hard to get to places (tops
of telephone poles, buildings, on bridges and overpasses, etc).
   This would mean that it would cost an awful lot of money to remove each of 
these things, IF they could be found.

Possible power sources: batteries (but they need to be changed)
                        solar power (Australia leads the world in solar power
                                     technology, and I know people who know
                                     people).
                         Near Field Interaction and EMF pickups (stick 'em
                            near high-frequency power transmission lines).
                         Something that convert heat to electrical energy
       or combinations of all of the above.

The idea being that we would have an untraceable, unbreakable network. Sure,
you may have an address (perhaps we could set it up as a FQDN domain?), but
that address would not correspond to any actual physical location. And, it
would be free, aside from the cost of the equipment. No more phone calls
to pay for!

I have no idea how this could be done across interstate or international 
distances, but I'm sure people might have ideas. Bounce signals off
satellites (are those big shiny things from the 50's still about?); send
stuff encrypted via the internet, etc etc.

This could well mean that we would have a truly private network, with 
strong encryption and no centralised source of transmission (I mean, most
of the internet traffic into and from Australia goes via a single link, 
so far as I know).

Comments?

Dwayne

Greets...

>    well, after reading through the backlog of spread spectrum stuff, I was
> surprised to read about the radio-network-on-a-board (Julieboard) article
> that someone posted. A couple of us here in Australia have been kicking
> around the idea of a cheap network, running via repeaters in _very_
> small boxes tossed all around a city, which would be indestructible through
> sheer numbers (a la the arpanet).
>    So: anyone got any ideas, schematics, information?

Haha!  That's exactly how I got hyped about the Julieboard --
rummaging in the backlog of the voluminous-but-valuable cpunk posts...

My question:  Exactly how cheap can we make these things?  Mass
produced boards, a bag of appropriate components, and a few dozen
cpunks working in parallel could work wonders.  

What about surface mount components?  Harder to assemble, and fewer
people have the skills, but the resulting box would be very small
and more easily concealed.

> The main idea is a huge number of small, low-power and CHEAP nodes which
> would handle through traffic which anyone with a radio modem could tap into,
> with the nodes disguised and placed in extremely hard to get to places (tops
> of telephone poles, buildings, on bridges and overpasses, etc).


> Possible power sources: batteries (but they need to be changed)
>                         solar power (Australia leads the world in solar power
>                                      technology, and I know people who know
>                                      people).
>                          Near Field Interaction and EMF pickups (stick 'em
>                             near high-frequency power transmission lines).
>                          Something that convert heat to electrical energy

If you are hiding boxes on telco poles, an obvious source of power
presents itself.  :-)

I like the EMF idea!  Ideologically and technically interesting...
Is it practical?   Heat to electricity?  hmm...

> I have no idea how this could be done across interstate or international 
> distances, but I'm sure people might have ideas. Bounce signals off
> satellites (are those big shiny things from the 50's still about?); send
> stuff encrypted via the internet, etc etc.

Someone suggested general use of IR laser links, but someone else 
mentioned that it would be a bitch to operate a decentralized network 
of IR links.  Well, lasers and microwave are probably best suited for
mid-range connections betweens clusters of boxes.

(Ham radio tinkers with microwave and laser communication experience
 should probably comment here...  )

Since the FCC frowns on encrypted amateur radio, I doubt we could
openly use the ham nets or satellites...but how about bit fiddling
with slow-scan TV?  :-)  The list has generated many good ideas
on tunneling naughty data in otherwise innocent exchanges...

How many people are interested in this idea?  Is it time for
a radiopunk task force?  Does one already exist?  :-)

Jason Asbahr                           116 E. Edgebrook #603
asbahr@uh.edu                          Houston, Texas  77034
asbahr@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTmail)      (713) 941-8294  voice
asbahr@gothamcity.jsc.nasa.gov         UH NeXT Consultant

> > Possible power sources: batteries (but they need to be changed)
> >                         solar power (Australia leads the world in
solar power
> >                                      technology, and I know people who know
> >                                      people).
> >                          Near Field Interaction and EMF pickups (stick 'em
> >                             near high-frequency power transmission lines).
> >                          Something that convert heat to electrical energy
>
> If you are hiding boxes on telco poles, an obvious source of power
> presents itself.  :-)
>
> I like the EMF idea!  Ideologically and technically interesting...
> Is it practical?   Heat to electricity?  hmm...

haha...  Well, telephone lines are not a good source of power, because
if you draw too much current, you will get caught very easily when the
customer starts having problems and complains.  I like the EMF idea tho!
 It would probably work fairly well, and would be undetectable unless
they actually went up to check it out.  In most areas, power is carried
by high voltage lines (several thousand volts) and then they have a
transformer every block or so to convert it down to 120v (or 240v or
whatever).  But those high voltage lines do produce a large magnetic
field.  If you strung wires parallel to them, you could get a pretty
sizeable amount of power out of it (enough to run a transmitter at
least).

Heat to electricity: possible but not practical.  Thermocouples can be
expensive and don't produce too much power.  You'd need to place it by
something constantly warm, especially at night.  Solar panels with
rechargeable batteries would probably work best.  That way, the box
could be located in a tall tree or somewhere away from other obvious
power sources, or in other less conspicuous locations.

> > I have no idea how this could be done across interstate or international 
> > distances, but I'm sure people might have ideas. Bounce signals off
> > satellites (are those big shiny things from the 50's still about?); send
> > stuff encrypted via the internet, etc etc.
>
> Someone suggested general use of IR laser links, but someone else
> mentioned that it would be a bitch to operate a decentralized network
> of IR links.  Well, lasers and microwave are probably best suited for
> mid-range connections betweens clusters of boxes.
>
> (Ham radio tinkers with microwave and laser communication experience
>  should probably comment here...  )
>
> Since the FCC frowns on encrypted amateur radio, I doubt we could
> openly use the ham nets or satellites...but how about bit fiddling
> with slow-scan TV?  :-)  The list has generated many good ideas
> on tunneling naughty data in otherwise innocent exchanges...

Well, for international, we might be able to pirate a few unused
frequencies on satellites, altho this might piss off some big name guys
just enuff to get the cops after us.  There's the possibility of
reflecting radio waves off the moon, but of course this would not work
all the time.

Infrared:  IR works well for short distances, and can not be intercepted
easily, but can scattered by rain and fog.  (Polarized light might help
filter noise somewhat tho.)  Furthermore, it has to be direct line of
sight, and can't be situated where something might move in the path of
the beam.  Perhaps someone living on a hill could put up a big aluminum
reflector, and people could focus beams of light onto it.

As for hiding messages in other signals, there's always the possibility
of using ultrasound on a voice frequency...(if the frequency is high
enuff to make it feasible)

> How many people are interested in this idea?  Is it time for
> a radiopunk task force?  Does one already exist?  :-)

Yep, I think so...  I like the idea.

I recall an SF novel that used small solar-powered planes as
repeaters. Add batteries for night time, make 'em cheap enough,
fly 'em high enough, give them smarts to avoid destructive
weather, and keep them light enought to avoid giving airplanes
indigestion should they hit, and I think you could solve a lot of
problems.

>Haha!  That's exactly how I got hyped about the Julieboard --
>rummaging in the backlog of the voluminous-but-valuable cpunk posts...

:-)
Yeah, they are useful. I got on this list only a couple of months ago, so
I am sure I have missed a lot.

>My question:  Exactly how cheap can we make these things?  Mass
>produced boards, a bag of appropriate components, and a few dozen
>cpunks working in parallel could work wonders.  

This is what I thought. If they are made so that they are self-powering,
and tuned via crystals, there is no reason why we couldn't have them
mass-produced wherever the hell they are cheapest to manufacture, as 
part of a big world-wide single order. My friend over here suggested
we <we being anyone vaguely interested in a free and unbreakable net> get
in touch with the ham radio set, plus the bbs scene. The more the merrier,
I say.
The advantage of crystals, or at least a tunable set, is that we can then 
tune them to whetever local frequency is appropriate...

>What about surface mount components?  Harder to assemble, and fewer
>people have the skills, but the resulting box would be very small
>and more easily concealed.

Well, the smaller the better, I think. Ideally they'd be match box or 
cigarette packet sized, or smaller. But I have no idea how big the julieboard
is....

>If you are hiding boxes on telco poles, an obvious source of power
>presents itself.  :-)

Phone lines are underground, here. Power lines aren't, though  :-)

>I like the EMF idea!  Ideologically and technically interesting...
>Is it practical?   Heat to electricity?  hmm...

The EMF isea IS practical. Apprently they have things in the train stations 
which induce a hum in a loop in a hearing aid so blind people can navigate
the platforms. This is in the undergroun stations in central melbourne.
I know nothing about EMF, but my freind does, and he think it's practicable.
I don't know about the heat-to-power idea, and neither does he, he's just
heard of it.

>Someone suggested general use of IR laser links, but someone else 
>mentioned that it would be a bitch to operate a decentralized network 
>of IR links.  Well, lasers and microwave are probably best suited for
>mid-range connections betweens clusters of boxes.

This is what I thought. I thought of using IR lasers for the net-to-Internet
link. What sort of traffic can an IR laser carry, and how cheap are they?
Is this sort of stuff easily done?

>(Ham radio tinkers with microwave and laser communication experience
> should probably comment here...  )

>Since the FCC frowns on encrypted amateur radio, I doubt we could
>openly use the ham nets or satellites...but how about bit fiddling
>with slow-scan TV?  :-)  The list has generated many good ideas
>on tunneling naughty data in otherwise innocent exchanges...

Well, the idea behind this is that even if the authorities DID frown on
the whole thing, there is nothing they can do about it. there is no 
centralised switching mechanism, just lots of cheap nodes scattered (and
hidden) all over the place. The concept of ARPAnet as an uninterruptible net
was what set me off on this track. Even if they could find the nodes, we
just put more up. they could jam the links, but if we make them so that
we can remotely change the frequncy, or use spread-spectrum tech, then
what can they do?  The radio direction finding bunch in the government
here has been shut down due to cost-cutting <heh heh> so there is bugger
all that could be done to stop it, in this country at least.
If we make the whole thing into suburban cells, and run each cell on a 
different frequency, then it wuld be impossible to jam the network.

>How many people are interested in this idea?  Is it time for
>a radiopunk task force?  Does one already exist?  :-)

Well, there is one over here, so i'll co-ordinate it if people are 
interested. People can mail me directly, and in a couple of weeks I'll 
have my own UUCP site so I can set up a maling list if the traffic gets 
too big.
I think this is a very good idea. Sure, we can encrypt our data, but we are 
still transmitting it over =someone else's net=
So, let's build our own!

Dwayne.

> A couple of us here in Australia have been kicking
> around the idea of a cheap network, running via repeaters
> in _very_ small boxes tossed all around a city, which would be
> indestructible through sheer numbers (a la the arpanet).
>   So: anyone got any ideas, schematics, information?
>
> The main idea is a huge number of small, low-power and CHEAP nodes which
> would handle through traffic which anyone with a radio modem could tap into,
> with the nodes disguised and placed in extremely hard to get to places (tops
> of telephone poles, buildings, on bridges and overpasses, etc).

Well, building the transmitter wouldn't be too hard, and you could
probably transmit much larger amounts of data than over a modem if you
used high frequencies.  The most difficult thing as I see it is that
you'd have to build a small computer for each box, and program it to
route data packets, error-check them, and so on.

> The idea being that we would have an untraceable, unbreakable network. Sure,
> you may have an address (perhaps we could set it up as a FQDN domain?), but
> that address would not correspond to any actual physical location. And, it
> would be free, aside from the cost of the equipment. No more phone calls
> to pay for!

A Fully-Qualified-Domain-Name type of network would create
complications.  Since the network will be constantly expanding and
changing, you'd probably need relative domain names. (you'd have to
specify: send packet thru site #10 thru site #34 and deliver to site #19)
To have fully qualified domain names, you'd need to have something on
the net cataloging them.

>Well, building the transmitter wouldn't be too hard, and you could
>probably transmit much larger amounts of data than over a modem if you
>used high frequencies.  The most difficult thing as I see it is that
>you'd have to build a small computer for each box, and program it to
>route data packets, error-check them, and so on.

Could an 8088 do this? (he says, having just asked this in a previous 
message).
The thing would be to do it via as cheap and readily availabe a chip as is 
possible.

>A Fully-Qualified-Domain-Name type of network would create
>complications.  Since the network will be constantly expanding and
>changing, you'd probably need relative domain names. (you'd have to
>specify: send packet thru site #10 thru site #34 and deliver to site #19)
>To have fully qualified domain names, you'd need to have something on
>the net cataloging them.

Erp. Right. Hmmm. I just thought it wuld be kind of nice to have an internet
address for some of the nodes, so we can mail to and from the internet,
while preserving the geographical invisibility that punknet would provide.

Dwayne