// COMPLETE THREAD

Credit cards vs. digital cash

2 expanded posts ยท every known parent and child

NODE 33854210Credit cards vs. digital cash
Steve Bellovin raises some good points about the function
of credit cards.  A couple responses:

> ...in these cases, customers have the potential to run up a
> large bill -- that is, a debt -- between interactions with the
> provider...  A vendor possessing a
> credit card number *will* be paid, with minimum hassle.  If the
> customer skips town, the card issuer eats the charge. 

Vendors should be able to get the equivalent protection by buying 
insurance against customers skipping town, for a similar price.
That, and collection enforcement, via local jurisdictions which have 
been lobbied to pass credit card fraud laws, are two of the main
functions served by credit card companies.  A third is collection
of dossiers on customers, which we would like to put under
customer control.

For online services, where the customer can be billed in near
real-time, the case where a large bill approaches the credit limit
is at least exceptional, and might be eliminated entirely.
Where the largest bill is much smaller than the credit limit,
the customer is put at much smaller risk by putting up 
a deposit then by exposing their entire credit rating
to both the vendor and snoopers who intercept the number.
Furthermore, the deposit can be made with a neutral third
party which serves the arbitrator function for disputes.

In this particular case, phone billing could be done
in very small increments, in near real-time, with digital
cash.

> But there's one more important point to consider:  U.S. law on
> disputed credit card purchases.  

This company was operating internationally; one of their customers
who posted lives in Kuwait.  Do all Internet jurisdictions have
laws protecting credit card customers?  How are these laws
enforced?  On whom lies the burden of evidence, legal costs, etc.?

I agree that the issue of customer vs. vendor assumption of risk
deserves much more attention than we have given it.  A major
goal is to minimize dependence on the maze of Internet
jurisdictions to resolve conflicts.  One interesting idea is 
an online escrow services that holds a customer deposit equal 
to the amount of the largest possible bill, and uses the escrow 
to resolve disputed billings.  The challenge is minimizing leakage 
of private information, via the escrow.

Nick Szabo				szabo@netcom.com
NODE 130a8e6aRe: Credit cards vs. digital cash
Nick Szabo writes:
> For online services, where the customer can be billed in near
> real-time, the case where a large bill approaches the credit limit
> is at least exceptional, and might be eliminated entirely.

I run a national network of public-access email systems.  We do not validate
anything about our callers and when they run a credit card charge, all we ask
for is the name on the card -- we don't check that against anything.  We have
50% more subscribers than the Well and we're making buckets of money.  Even
though our callers are anonymous we still see a chargeback rate of less than
0.5%, which we consider to be an acceptable cost of doing business.

It's my opinion that we have four things working in our favor:

1.  Most people are honest.  When you start analyzing the different ways that
    people can screw you, you can quickly forget this point.

2.  People buy their time in advance.  We "see" these people on a regular
    basis so we can partially "recover" by shutting off an account operating
    on fraud-based monies.

3.  We limit people to buying only what they need for the short term and do
    not give them the opportunity to charge up a card.

4.  We have a long memory for bad card numbers and shady customers. :-)

I say these things because I've noticed that there is a general assumption
that anyone doing commerce in a more anonymous environment like cyberspace
is going to be Under Siege at All Times by People in Black Hats.  That's an
appropriate attitude to take in order to set the context for the discussion
of ways to prevent fraud, etc.  But! don't be surprised that when you
present the results of your efforts to people who are looking to do business
on the net, that they will tell you that your solutions are too complicated
and too paranoid for their situation.  Most people will be too busy running
their business and counting their money to really care about that 0.5%

Jon