REAL WORLD ENCRYPTION

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                         SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

I would like to start a new thread.  I want to know what the
people on this list intend to do with cryptography in the "real
world."  There are a number of Cypherpunk projects on the drawing
board or already deployed:  Stego, encrypted phones, encrypted
and anonymous remailers, stealth PGP, a digital bank, etc.  Do
the folks on this list intend to use these tools, or is your
interest only theoretical?

I'm not looking for simple "yes" or "no" comments, however.  I'm
interested in finding out how much you are willing to reorganize
your life in order to take advantage of these techniques.  I want
to know what factors would increase or decrease your use of
cryptographic products and services.  What do you want? What do
you fear?

My interest is more than academic.  I am one of the Cypherpunks
involved in creating a digital bank.  If the 700 or so people on
this list wouldn't open an account in a digital bank, chances are
no one else would either.  The same goes, of course, for secure
phones, encrypted e-mail, and all the rest.

What Real World concerns you have about crypto?

Talk to me.


 S a n d y

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> I would like to start a new thread.  I want to know what the
> people on this list intend to do with cryptography in the "real
> world."  There are a number of Cypherpunk projects on the drawing
> board or already deployed:  Stego, encrypted phones, encrypted
> and anonymous remailers, stealth PGP, a digital bank, etc.  Do
> the folks on this list intend to use these tools, or is your
> interest only theoretical?

Well Sandy, I plan to use these tools we've developed.  I use PGP on
a regular basis (my public key is available on most of the key servers
or my .plan) for encryption of mail and sensitive source.  I do not
sign my messages, nor do I collect everyone else's keys -- for the
bulk of the things I do, it is pointless.

Encrypted phones, remailers, and such are of little use to me.  Stego
could be usefull, but I have not had the opportunity to necessitate it.
Stealth PGP?  Sure -- it's a good idea, but anyone can strip the
"Begin PGP data block" messages.

> I'm not looking for simple "yes" or "no" comments, however.  I'm
> interested in finding out how much you are willing to reorganize
> your life in order to take advantage of these techniques.  I want
> to know what factors would increase or decrease your use of
> cryptographic products and services.  What do you want? What do
> you fear?

My life does not depend on the cryptographic techniques we hvae
developed.  I would hate for -anyone- to have to depend on the work
of others so much.  If I needed, I would install a new vresion of
sendmail to automatically encrypt all outgoing/local mail; I would
use the encrypted filesystems; I would use the encrypted cores that
someone has proposed.  But -- nothing I do right now needs that
sort of security.

> My interest is more than academic.  I am one of the Cypherpunks
> involved in creating a digital bank.  If the 700 or so people on
> this list wouldn't open an account in a digital bank, chances are
> no one else would either.  The same goes, of course, for secure
> phones, encrypted e-mail, and all the rest.

Of course not!  If we wouldn't use a digital bank, then who in the
regular public would?  What they don't realize is that most of the
banking now adays is electronic and just the same as the digital banks
we have discussed.  I would open an account in a digital bank on a
few conditions:

1)	The currency could be tendered elsewhere.  I hate the "tokens"
that arcades and casinos use.  If I can't use the money I store in
the digital bank for something other than "digital postage," then it
is of no use to me.

2)	I would have some insurance that my "money" is safe and that
I can retrieve it at any time.  Just like the FDRC insures member banks,
I would like some digital version of that.  Will all the banks have
separate currencies?  Or will there only be one master bank with slaves
across the net?

> What Real World concerns you have about crypto?

	Clipper scares me.  I don't like the idea of the government
regulating encryption.  Banks and finaces, I have no problem with, but
cryptography really scares me.  Why do they want to be able to read my
love letters (or my seditions email, or anything else of mine)?  Most
of my files are 0755 anyway, so they are free to read them.
	Another thing which bothers me -- most of the people I work
with and the other users on my machines have their umask set to 7077.
Why?  What do they have to hide? I leave my umask at 7022 and only
chmod go-rx on the files I don't want anyone else to read.  With
encryption, it is just one step further.

> Talk to me.

Sure -- just as long as someone is listening.
> 
	Tramm "Will ramble for net access" Hudson

------------------------------------------------------------------
tramm@chartres.ee.tulane.edu                 tramm@lsmsa.nsula.edu
lshud7354@alpha.nsula.edu                    tbhudso@cs.sandia.gov

      G{CS,E,M,T,U} !-d+ p? ^c++++ l++ u{++,+++}!? --e+{?)#
       !m ?/s-  !(--n++) ~++h---(*) ?f+ !s &w- t- r* y?+

My Real World intrest in crypto is in preserving my freedom of speech and action in the face of a government who continues to try and deny those rights to me.
 As many on the list have said,we cannot always trust the government to uphold the rights granted in the constitution.With crypto,I hope a measure of self-gurantee will come about so we won't have to rely on government trust.Freedom of
speech is a real world thing,we use it everyday.Any crypto product that enhancesthat use and protects it,I would use.In addition,economic freedom is something
I would be intrested in using(as i watch more of my cash go to government).


Greg Kucharo
kryten@shell.portal.com       "In the high school halls,In the shopping malls,
                               conform or be cast out." Rush-Signals.

(Initially a reply to Sandy alone, but his partners in crime^H^H^H^H^H
may wish to see my responses as well, and the issueof who will use a
"digital bank" are of direct relevance to Cypherpunks as well. Hence
I'm copying the list on this reply.)

Sandy, 

Good questions!

I may or may not open an account, but how much I put into would be
dependent on the degree of "Swiss"-type services. Probably not many
such services, I am surmising, so it would make little sense for me to
liquidate assets currently in the U.S. to move them into your bank
(if I remained in U.S., no protection. If I left U.S., no _need_ for
your bank).

I think this'll be a cultural problem you guys will face. You can't be
a real digital money bank, in the long-range sense we've talked about.
(Total anonymity, Lichtenstein "anstalt"-type anonymity, digitally
mediated.)

How many users, and of what type, can you expect?

Probably at least a hundred folks on the List will say they plan to
use your bank. Of these, 50 will actually open an account...the rest
will think twice about the repercussions, or will wimp out, or will
just not get around to it.

Unfortunately, most Cypherpunks are of modest means, being students or
just starting out in industry, so the average deposit will be--I
predict--less than $2000. (Most people have not much more than this in
their checking accounts...if they have more, they spend it.)

After the novelty of showing their friends their ATM card from "First
Cyberspace Bank," or whatever, wears off, expect folks to drop out.

The noncognoscenti, the cryptographically challenged, will likely balk
at the crypto aspects, unless they are so well hidden as to thus be of
little interest...you'll just be another credit union or bank. Good
luck, and maybe a reasonable career to pursue, but not a millenial event.

Maybe I'm missing something, but in the space of features that a
digital money system _could_ offer (somday), what I gather you plan to
offer is not sufficiently interesting for "high rollers" to take a
serious interest. Real tax avoiders will move assets in other
ways...the idea of an ATM card and a slight savings on checks or
debits by not having to process paper will not influence them on
matters of this importance.

(BCCI, Castle Bank, Nugan Hand, etc. were not started with deposits
from the proles. Just not enough money in that.)

So, I have a hard time seeing how you'll get a lot of members. But
then, you folks haven't talked much about your actual plans, targeted
classes of customers, plans for dealing with the existing banking laws
(including reporting of transactions), and so on. So perhaps I'm
completely offbase here. It's hard for us to give you feedback when we
know so little about your plans.

But from what I've gathered, I'll open an account just for the novelty
of it and may keep a few thou in it. Maybe less, depending on your
interest rates paid. (I currently write all my checks and do all my
VISA transactions out of an "Active Assets Account" that pays me
interest on a positive balance and charges me a very reasonable
interest rate, near the discount rate, on a negative balance. I use
this account for checks, debit card (VISA), and ATM. And I get a lot
of extra services, like fully computerized summaries of expenditures
and transactions--useful at tax time. Your system had better be nearly
as full-serviced, or the tax avoidance/money laundering services had
better be _damned good_, or why should I bother?

Other folks may have different priorities, but these are mine. (I'm
all for secrecy, but I want true secrecy. The fact that my bank has
full computerized records for me may be _superficially_ "counter
privacy" to some, but all U.S. banks maintain these records anyway,
and these can be inspected by the Feds at any time, without a search
warrant. So I'm happy to get the detailed records.)

Offer a "digital numbered account," with the massive
reputation-related safeguards that would be needed, and a whole new
class of depositors could appear. But also expect massive moves by the
Feds.

Just my honest opinions. I wish you guys well.

--Tim May

-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power:2**859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.

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> 
> Talk to me.
> 

	I am interested in preserving the personal safety of me &
mine. (Loved ones, etc.) I have numerous friends involved in certain
victimless activities which are currently proscribed by our
Friends[tm] and I would like to be able to dicuss these things without
worry of having my friends incarcerated.
	To this end I have done much work showing them how to use PGP
and encouraging the use thereof. It is a *very* slow process.

	I am in the planning stages of setting up a crypto-oriented
internet-connected househould, which I hope to use to furthur the
above goals, as well as sell crypto services to the internet
community, such as anonymous remailer, a psuedonyms server, and other
various services.


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