Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets

Perry E. Metzger says:

> Incorrect. Those who do not understand freedom think that by
> oppressing Nazis and preventing them from speaking you have somehow
> protected freedom. However, in doing so, you have used the methods of
> the Nazis. 

If a murderer tries to kill you and you have a gun, you will shoot
back, I assume, even if you use the same method as him.


> You can fight Naziism by spreading information about the evils of
> Naziism. 

I wish it were true. They were trying this for many years. We all thought
that Naziism will never come back because the lesson (WW II) was big enough.
But it didn't work as you can see in the news magazines. 

What do you believe, is it a good idea to publish software like PGP
if it is used by the Nazis to organize their work?




> You can fight it by vigorously prosecuting those who commit
> acts of violence. 

If you can get them...



> 
> > I'm sure that american press freedom is not better than german ones.
> 
> Untrue. In the U.S., I can start a newspaper without any licenses from
> the Government, and I can print anything I wish in that newspaper
> without fear of government prosecution. (I might be sued by a private
> party for libel if I intentionally lie about someone, but thats quite
> different.) In Germany, I cannot just open a newspaper and print, say,
> Nazi editorials in it.

Untrue. In Germany, I can do the very same. And I do not get
sued by private party with lawyers who want to get some millions
of dollars. And whether you are allowed to open your Nazi editorial
depends on what you understand under "Nazi".

In this discussion "Nazi" is everything from an idea to settings buildings
on fire. If I say allow, they say I would allow killing people. If I forbid,
they say I forbid to publish ideas. Tell me what is "Nazi" in your argument.



> > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture
> > of a football game and a tv show.
> 
> Yes, but that is a statement that the press in the U.S. is bad, not
> that it is unfree. Freedom and quality are orthogonal.

Untrue. A press without freedom can't be good. And if your press is bad
and not interested in publishing anything real, then of course you don't
need to control it. But this is neither freedom nor quality.


> > In Germany I can get my Cryptosoftware from whereever I want,
> 
> Actually, you can do that here, too. We just cant send the software
> overseas.

I can publish everything about Cryptography and publish it everywhere
over the world.

I can publish newpapers with nude girls on the front. Is this possible
in your country?

As far as I know in your country a lot of things are controlled by
religious groups. Is this freedom?


Hadmut

Hadmut Danisch says:
> 
> Perry E. Metzger says:
> 
> > Incorrect. Those who do not understand freedom think that by
> > oppressing Nazis and preventing them from speaking you have somehow
> > protected freedom. However, in doing so, you have used the methods of
> > the Nazis. 
> 
> If a murderer tries to kill you and you have a gun, you will shoot
> back, I assume, even if you use the same method as him.

I will indeed shoot at anyone that is trying to shoot at me. Tell me,
are the Nazis currently censoring you in Germany? In any case,
reasoning by analogy is specious. My point was very simple: a free
country is one in which people may speak their mind. You cannot keep a
country free by imposing censorship; it is a contradiction in terms.

> > You can fight Naziism by spreading information about the evils of
> > Naziism. 
> 
> I wish it were true. They were trying this for many years. We all thought
> that Naziism will never come back because the lesson (WW II) was big enough.
> But it didn't work as you can see in the news magazines. 

Using your own criterion, the censorship hasn't worked either.

> What do you believe, is it a good idea to publish software like PGP
> if it is used by the Nazis to organize their work?

Let us say rather that it is not possible to prevent cryptographic
software from being used by Nazis and I would rather see it available
to all rather than to be used only by the Nazis. Any system which
could stop Nazis from using cryptographic software would involve so
much wholesale monitoring of all communications as to eliminate the
benefits of fighting Naziism.

It is not enough to defeat the Nazis -- one must also avoid destroying
the thing which one wants to preserve, which is freedom. If the price
of destroying Nazis is to destroy the thing you were trying to
protect, you have done no good.

> > You can fight it by vigorously prosecuting those who commit
> > acts of violence. 
> 
> If you can get them...

One has no choice but to try.

> > > I'm sure that american press freedom is not better than german ones.
> > 
> > Untrue. In the U.S., I can start a newspaper without any licenses from
> > the Government, and I can print anything I wish in that newspaper
> > without fear of government prosecution. (I might be sued by a private
> > party for libel if I intentionally lie about someone, but thats quite
> > different.) In Germany, I cannot just open a newspaper and print, say,
> > Nazi editorials in it.
> 
> Untrue. In Germany, I can do the very same. And I do not get
> sued by private party with lawyers who want to get some millions
> of dollars. And whether you are allowed to open your Nazi editorial
> depends on what you understand under "Nazi".

Are you telling me that if I were to write in a newspaper "all Turks
should be killed" that this would be legal under German law? I was
under the impression that you cannot.

> > > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture
> > > of a football game and a tv show.
> > 
> > Yes, but that is a statement that the press in the U.S. is bad, not
> > that it is unfree. Freedom and quality are orthogonal.
> 
> Untrue. A press without freedom can't be good.

Then by definition yours cannot be good, because yours is unfree.

> I can publish newpapers with nude girls on the front. Is this possible
> in your country?

Yes. In fact, many magazines are published with nude women in front.
You may have difficulty finding places willing to sell them, however.

> As far as I know in your country a lot of things are controlled by
> religious groups. Is this freedom?

Religious groups control religious institutions. They do not control
our government. Is it your contention that religious groups do not
control your religious institutions? In any case, what does this have
to do with freedom? If one chooses to go to a church, for instance,
what is wrong with that per se?

Perry

Although I think this thread should end, I can't let this go by...

On Thu, 10 Feb 1994, Hadmut Danisch wrote:

> If a murderer tries to kill you and you have a gun, you will shoot
> back, I assume, even if you use the same method as him.

There is a clear difference here, but we have to get some definitions
cleared up. The other person isn't a murderer until you are dead. What
he is doing (I'll assume it's a guy...) is attempting to end your life.
To prevent this is your choice (most will choose to protect themselves).

Hell, even if I didn't have a gun, I'd fight back. A gun just makes
it more convenient (note also that unless your death is evident, as
opposed to just being bruised say, then killing the guy outright
would to me be wrong. Just shoot his kneecaps, or maybe just in the
gut, although this is likely to be fatal as well, but then, maybe the
guy should have been a bit smarter...)

My point is that initiating violence and protecting yourself from
violence (using "violence") are two different things...

> > You can fight Naziism by spreading information about the evils of
> > Naziism. 
> 
> I wish it were true. They were trying this for many years. We all thought
> that Naziism will never come back because the lesson (WW II) was big enough.
> But it didn't work as you can see in the news magazines. 

Unfortunately I don't think it was really tried in Germany (or in most
places). The events of that era, the ideologies, were swept under the
rug, to be forgotten, not to be talked about... This does not make
for education...

> What do you believe, is it a good idea to publish software like PGP
> if it is used by the Nazis to organize their work?

No, I don't think it's a good idea. However, that is not saying I would
support an effort to suppress their ideas. I do exactly what I do with
all other ideologies I think are a bunch of crap. Don't adopt them and
retaliate when it affects me personally...

> > You can fight it by vigorously prosecuting those who commit
> > acts of violence. 
> 
> If you can get them...

Always a problem. However, this is much preferable to trying to get them
before they actually do anything. This tends to turn into a witch
hunt and more innocent people are burned...

> In this discussion "Nazi" is everything from an idea to settings buildings
> on fire. If I say allow, they say I would allow killing people. If I forbid,
> they say I forbid to publish ideas. Tell me what is "Nazi" in your argument.

A "Nazi" was a member of the National Socialist Party of Germany during the
first half of this century (and by the laws of the time, that meant
just about everybody. Everybody except for the "races" which those in
charge found to be "unpure", where "pure" could be defined as some
sort of ideal "master race" which those in charge thought the Nazi party
was... Very circular arrangement really...) At the time in Germany
it was a complement to be called a National Socialist. Now however it
is a very loaded insult to most people, although some still find the
"endearing" rhetoric about "master" races and such to still be
attractive, hence the neo-Nazi...

That is what the word "Nazi" means to me...

> > > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture
> > > of a football game and a tv show.

That's what sells the average American...

I don't expect it last much longer though...

> > Yes, but that is a statement that the press in the U.S. is bad, not
> > that it is unfree. Freedom and quality are orthogonal.
> 
> Untrue. A press without freedom can't be good. And if your press is bad
> and not interested in publishing anything real, then of course you don't
> need to control it. But this is neither freedom nor quality.

You seem to be watching the wrong media. TV is a controlled media, by the
FCC, and the large cable corporations. Public broadcasting tends to be
more informative... Most TV though is a wasteland (and if I remember
from my last trip to Germany in '87, I found it's TV selection to be
worse... The only thing I liked was that commercials weren't put on
during shows...)

Most of the interesting press is in print, since there are far fewer
regulations (since one isn't broadcasting over "public" frequencies).
And it is also far cheaper to put stuff into print...

> > > In Germany I can get my Cryptosoftware from whereever I want,
> > 
> > Actually, you can do that here, too. We just cant send the software
> > overseas.

Well, you're not "supposed" to. Really it is as easy as sending e-mail
to someone...

> I can publish everything about Cryptography and publish it everywhere
> over the world.

Blame it on the paranoid US government (read, the NSA)...

> I can publish newpapers with nude girls on the front. Is this possible
> in your country?

Must be, since I often have seen them in various "adult" stores. You can't
put them on "public" display, not without risk of being sued by some
irate parent...

I agree though that sex is generally handled better in Europe than in
North America... Very prudish society (both Canada, where I am, and in
the US)

> As far as I know in your country a lot of things are controlled by
> religious groups. Is this freedom?

How do you mean controlled? Lot's of things are "controlled" by Jewish
people, depending on whom you ask. The banking folks seem to control
the banks pretty well. That store down the street where I buy milk is
controlled by somebody pretty good too... Oooh aah...

Am I "controlled"? Who knows. Who cares? I'm happy, but then so are the
vast majority of people in Singapore, which is far less free in
many ways than either of the two countries under discussion...

> Hadmut

-Oliver

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