Re: Cryptography banned in the Netherlands....

>> I have always thought that the Netherlands was a very liberal country.
>> But now the government is proposing a law that totally outlaws the use
>> of encryption methods.
>
>Actually, these are quite consistent.  Much of the ``liberal'' agenda
>relies on government, whether to impose taxes to support welfare, or to
>enforce political correctness, or whatever.  But the continued
>effectiveness of government (and other large institutions) is threatened
>by strong cryptography.
>
>        John E. Kreznar         | Relations among people to be by
>        jkreznar@ininx.com      | mutual consent, or not at all.

Right, as opposed to conservatives, who are happy to have people "threaten
the effectiveness of government and other large institutions."  So, among
"liberals" we can include Reagan, J. Edgar Hoover, Joe McCarthy, and Nixon,
all of whom took some pretty extreme steps to silence critics of
"government and other large institutions," up to and including political
assassinations.  Tell CISPES (Committee in Solidarity with the People of El
Salvador) that the hundreds of break-ins and phone taps by the FBI in the
mid-80's were intended to make sure that the former didn't increase the
effectiveness of the U.S. government too much.

Refresh my memory: which country has been destroying lives and seizing
millions of dollars' worth of private property for over a decade in a
fascistic "War on Drugs"?  In which country can people buy, sell, and smoke
pot openly without police harrassment of any kind?

Which "politically correct" president forbade a Canadian filmmaker who made
a film critical of the U.S. government to show that film here unless it had
the label "Propaganda" attached to it?

I'm no lover of "liberals" (though for very different reasons from you, to
be sure), but this is utter nonsense.  Do people really believe this stuff?

--
Dave Mandl
dmandl@panix.com

C'punks,

Hey, remember, we're all on the same side.

On Fri, 1 Apr 1994, David Mandl wrote after quoting John Kreznar's rant 
about "liberals":

> Right, as opposed to conservatives, who are happy to have people "threaten
> the effectiveness of government and other large institutions."  [and so 
on in this vein for several more paragraphs.]

Whoe, lighten up fellows.  You both agree!  *Neither* liberals nor 
conservatives are automatically our friends.  People who are PRO CRYPTO 
are our friends regardless of what political camp they put themselves 
in.  Please, lets not bring extraneous political, posturing onto this 
list.  Liberals or conservatives who want to ban or regulate crypto are 
our enemies.  Liberals or conservatives who support strong crypto are our 
friends.  It's as simple as that.


S a n d y

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> I'm no lover of "liberals" (though for very different reasons from you, to
> be sure), but this is utter nonsense.  Do people really believe this stuff?

Uhhm...  Boy!  Was I _that_ unclear about my meaning?  It is a _virtue_
of strong cryptography that it reduces the effectiveness of governments.
That's part of what cypherpunks is about.  Or am I now misunderstanding
you as badly as you apparently misunderstood me?  No way did I intend to
defend _any_ nation-state, _especially_ including any conducting wars on
drugs or presuming to forbid the showing of a film or tapping the phones
of dissidents.

My point was that liberals are not automatically innocent of Statism and
in fact have ample reason of their own to want an oppressive leviathan
State.  For this reason, strong cryptography threatens them as much as
any other Statists.

Freedom and cryptoanarchy are not on the liberal-conservative axis at
all.

	John E. Kreznar		| Relations among people to be by
	jkreznar@ininx.com	| mutual consent, or not at all.

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> So, among "liberals" we can include Reagan, J. Edgar Hoover, Joe
> McCarthy, and Nixon, all of whom took some pretty extreme steps to
> silence critics of "government and other large institutions," up
> to and including political assassinations.

Get real.  With very few exceptions, the entire American political
spectrum is made up of liberals.  That most certianly includes
Reagan, MaCarthy, definitly Nixon, and mabey Hoover.


brad