RE: Milgram & Authority

B >Q:  In this book, does it say whether the test subjects were asked 
B >about their thoughts on this?   Did they provide an explanation, from 
B >
B >their own point of view, for their obedience or what they understood 
B >about the objective of the experiment - before & after?
B >
B >Blanc

The subjects were very upset during and after the experiment.  Some broke 
down while administering "lethal" shocks.  They often cried and begged the 
"researcher" to let them stop zapping the victim.  In those cases where a 
white coated researcher with a clipboard was standing behind them, the 
subject was much more likely to impose greater shocks than if there was no 
"researcher" present.

The main reason they did it is because they were being told to.  Primates 
have a hard time disobeying authority figures or standing out from the 
crowd. 

DCF

"Help the Homeless -- Teach them how to sell their identities."

See.  And you all thought I was a heartless right wing nut.




--- WinQwk 2.0b#1165

C'punks,

On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Duncan Frissell wrote regarding the experiments in 
which test subjects were told to give "victims" supposedly ever 
increasing jolts of electricity:

> . . .
> The main reason they did it is because they were being told to.  Primates 
> have a hard time disobeying authority figures or standing out from the 
> crowd. 
> . . .

Also, if memory serves me, they were told that the "researcher" would take
"full responsibility" for the test subjects actions.  This allowed the 
subjects to proceed since, in their minds, they were "only following 
orders."  No one seemed to question the idea that it is possible for one 
person to take responsibility for the actions of another.

I have asked myself many times, what would I have done?  I like to think 
I would have refused, but I honestly don't know.  Scary thought, huh?


 S a n d y

On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> subjects to proceed since, in their minds, they were "only following 
> orders."  No one seemed to question the idea that it is possible for one 
> person to take responsibility for the actions of another.
> 
> I have asked myself many times, what would I have done?  I like to think 
> I would have refused, but I honestly don't know.  Scary thought, huh?
> 
> 
>  S a n d y
> 


I've worried about the same thing myself.  The best way to fight these
tendancies is to "follow the tracks back to the barn."  Uncover the
illusion and place it in context.  Whenever I visited Disneyland, I used
to follow all the tracks back to the barns.  Most of the rides there are
rail vehicles even the submarine ride.  You can see the reality of the
place by observing the tracks.

In the case of experiments like this you can be aware of the existence of
the researcher and avoid trusting him.  In the larger world, you can keep
a death's grip on reality and note that people giving you orders are just
men who have their own reasons for doing things.  Trace the power
relationships back to the barn.

Never be afraid to jinx sideways to throw them off your tail.  Practice
violating small orders so that when it really counts, you'll be able to
violate big orders smoothly without even having to think about it.

Not to attack others facing a different world but how many jews could have
saved themselves during the 1930s by choosing to become illegal aliens in
the US or the UK.  

Practice disobedience.

DCF

Privacy 101 -- Don't get a driver's license from the state or country
where you live.  You gain absolutly no benefit from having one and not
having one could easily save your life someday.  You can drive a car in
the US with a license from any nation on earth.

Duncan Frissell writes:
> 
> Not to attack others facing a different world but how many jews could have
> saved themselves during the 1930s by choosing to become illegal aliens in
> the US or the UK.  

Don't you know how the US and UK physically turned back boatloads of
people trying this?

-- 
Dragon

Dragon says:
> Duncan Frissell writes:
> > Not to attack others facing a different world but how many jews could have
> > saved themselves during the 1930s by choosing to become illegal aliens in
> > the US or the UK.  
> 
> Don't you know how the US and UK physically turned back boatloads of
> people trying this?

I personally know someone who succeeded. The key was, I suppose, that
he wasn't coming over with a boatload of other people.

However, none of this has anything to do with cryptography.

Perry