Re: Constitution and Contract [Was: CIA & FBI]

From: Black Unicorn

This seems to me like the Jeffersonian notion that the Constitution
should be amended in every generation.  Letter to Samuel Kercheval, July
12 1816, The Portable Thomas Jefferson 557-558 (M. Peterson ed. 1975).
I think this is perhaps excessive, and if you consider the effect of short
term politics, one could well find his or her own generation is the one which
does away with the 4th and 5th amendments because of a "Crime Crisis."

If your suggestion is more along the lines of a more reasoned and
enduring amendment process with some respect for the concepts of old and
more importantly an attempt to adapt the spirit of the document [the 
Constitution] to the reality of the day, I concur wholeheartedly.
...................................................

No, it has nothing to do with the amendment process; it has to do with 
original thought.

As long as the people of today or tomorrow remain attached to a 
document,  becoming dependent upon it for their thinking, then they are 
still not free, because - especially in the case of the Constitution - 
they have still not understood the message.  The principle of 
individuality and freedom from government coercion means that an 
individual can make up their own mind, can use their own judgement, and 
can decide for themselves whether or not they will become a member of 
an institution - even if that institution is already in existence 
surrounding them and it seems that it is no longer required of them to 
think about making a choice regarding their relationship to it, that 
the choice was already made for them a long time ago and the situation 
no longer requires their input  -  almost as if their opinion were 
irrelevant, almost as if that which was created in the past had nothing 
to do with them in the present.

If no one from an institution inquires whether you want to join, but 
takes it for granted that you are a member and then proceeds to treat 
you like citizen, then they have not been respectful of your 
independent ability to make up your own mind, apart from their ability 
to make that decision for you.  This is not in the spirit of the 
Constitution.

The age of the concept is not what is important; it is the principle 
elucidated.  Any document which presents important concepts is 
valuable.   It isn't requisite, however, that one remain attached to it 
in order to reap the benefit of its wisdom;  it is more important to 
recognize that to which the wisdom therein refers,  and once the ideas 
have been digested & comprehended, to advance using the perspicacity 
which you should have developed from their study.

My point in this discussion is only to say that in terms of a contract, 
no one is really provided the opportunity to "sign the deal", so to 
speak.  Too much is taken for granted, and therefore too many mistakes 
are made from the absence of a foundation based upon actual agreements 
made (rather than assumed agreement).

Blanc

> 
> From: Black Unicorn
> 
> This seems to me like the Jeffersonian notion that the Constitution
> should be amended in every generation.  Letter to Samuel Kercheval, July
> 12 1816, The Portable Thomas Jefferson 557-558 (M. Peterson ed. 1975).
> I think this is perhaps excessive, and if you consider the effect of short
> term politics, one could well find his or her own generation is the one which
> does away with the 4th and 5th amendments because of a "Crime Crisis."
> 
> If your suggestion is more along the lines of a more reasoned and
> enduring amendment process with some respect for the concepts of old and
> more importantly an attempt to adapt the spirit of the document [the 
> Constitution] to the reality of the day, I concur wholeheartedly.
> ...................................................
> 
> No, it has nothing to do with the amendment process; it has to do with 
> original thought.
> 
> As long as the people of today or tomorrow remain attached to a 
> document,  becoming dependent upon it for their thinking, then they are 
> still not free, because - especially in the case of the Constitution - 
> they have still not understood the message.  The principle of 
> individuality and freedom from government coercion means that an 
> individual can make up their own mind, can use their own judgement, and 
> can decide for themselves whether or not they will become a member of 
> an institution - even if that institution is already in existence 
> surrounding them and it seems that it is no longer required of them to 
> think about making a choice regarding their relationship to it, that 
> the choice was already made for them a long time ago and the situation 
> no longer requires their input  -  almost as if their opinion were 
> irrelevant, almost as if that which was created in the past had nothing 
> to do with them in the present.
> 
> If no one from an institution inquires whether you want to join, but 
> takes it for granted that you are a member and then proceeds to treat 
> you like citizen, then they have not been respectful of your 
> independent ability to make up your own mind, apart from their ability 
> to make that decision for you.  This is not in the spirit of the 
> Constitution.
> 
> The age of the concept is not what is important; it is the principle 
> elucidated.  Any document which presents important concepts is 
> valuable.   It isn't requisite, however, that one remain attached to it 
> in order to reap the benefit of its wisdom;  it is more important to 
> recognize that to which the wisdom therein refers,  and once the ideas 
> have been digested & comprehended, to advance using the perspicacity 
> which you should have developed from their study.
> 
> My point in this discussion is only to say that in terms of a contract, 
> no one is really provided the opportunity to "sign the deal", so to 
> speak.  Too much is taken for granted, and therefore too many mistakes 
> are made from the absence of a foundation based upon actual agreements 
> made (rather than assumed agreement).
> 
> Blanc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

> 
> From: Black Unicorn
> 
> This [concept of generational input to the constitution] seems to me like 
> the Jeffersonian notion that the Constitution should be amended in every
> generation.

[Comments on the danger of short term politics in this context.]

> 
> If your suggestion is more along the lines of a more reasoned and
> enduring amendment process with some respect for the concepts of old and
> more importantly an attempt to adapt the spirit of the document [the 
> Constitution] to the reality of the day, I concur wholeheartedly.
> ...................................................

Mr. Weber replies:

> 
> No, it has nothing to do with the amendment process; it has to do with 
> original thought.
> 
> As long as the people of today or tomorrow remain attached to a 
> document,  becoming dependent upon it for their thinking, then they are 
> still not free, because - especially in the case of the Constitution - 
> they have still not understood the message.


This almost sounds like you are calling for liberation from the 
Constitution of the United States.  In this regard your position closely 
resembles the anti-federalist doctrines.  Although it is a position with 
which I cannot agree, I do respect it as one with much scholarly support.


> The principle of 
> individuality and freedom from government coercion means that an 
> individual can make up their own mind, can use their own judgement, and 
> can decide for themselves whether or not they will become a member of 
> an institution - even if that institution is already in existence 
> surrounding them and it seems that it is no longer required of them to 
> think about making a choice regarding their relationship to it, that 
> the choice was already made for them a long time ago and the situation 
> no longer requires their input  -  almost as if their opinion were 
> irrelevant, almost as if that which was created in the past had nothing 
> to do with them in the present.

I think it's difficult to accomplish what you propose.  This seems to me 
to amount to calling for the status of sovereignty to apply to every 
individual.  A system of individual sovereignty strikes me as unworkable, 
and again a slippery slope to complete lawlessness.  I'd like to head 
that way, just not ALL the way there.

> If no one from an institution inquires whether you want to join, but 
> takes it for granted that you are a member and then proceeds to treat 
> you like citizen, then they have not been respectful of your 
> independent ability to make up your own mind, apart from their ability 
> to make that decision for you.  This is not in the spirit of the 
> Constitution.

I guess I'm not sure what the solution here is other than to grant 
citizenship on the basis that it is granted today.  Jus Soli or Jus 
Sangre.  How a legal infant can decide the state of citizenship for him 
or herself is a difficult proposition.  At the age of majority there 
exist a great number of options and several nations which grant 
citizenship on basic requirements.  In addition one can always become 
stateless.  Any social organization will be coercive by the standards you 
have set down as I understand them.  Protections for the collective 
always intrude on the individual.  I am not prepared to defend the 
position of absolute individuality as a natural right.

> The age of the concept is not what is important; it is the principle 
> elucidated.  Any document which presents important concepts is 
> valuable.   It isn't requisite, however, that one remain attached to it 
> in order to reap the benefit of its wisdom;  it is more important to 
> recognize that to which the wisdom therein refers,  and once the ideas 
> have been digested & comprehended, to advance using the perspicacity 
> which you should have developed from their study.

I agree.  However, the problem with the rather nebulous and elusive 
"spirit" of the ideas in the Constitution is that committing them to the
social memory almost insures their erasure in a number of generations 
less than the number of fingers on the hand of an expert woodshop 
vet.  In addition, the short term politics I mentioned before cause a 
problem.  There are certain concepts that are expressed in the language 
of the Constitution that I think are timeless.  These include but are not 
limited to:  The right to bear arms.  The right against self incrimination.
Applying these to the current era is the task, not modifying their basic 
content.

> My point in this discussion is only to say that in terms of a contract, 
> no one is really provided the opportunity to "sign the deal", so to 
> speak.  Too much is taken for granted, and therefore too many mistakes 
> are made from the absence of a foundation based upon actual agreements 
> made (rather than assumed agreement).

I agree in theory.  In practice I must dissent.  I still maintain that 
social organizations demand some degree of sacrifice.  Provided the 
borders are not closed to those who wish to leave, and there is a 
"market" of sovereigns to choose from, I don't find the power 
of a sovereign in itself offensive.  What I feel is the obligation of the 
sovereign is to limit the level of corruption of the individual by 
forebearing from unneeded exertions of authority.


> Blanc

-uni- (Dark)