Re: Announcement RE: Lobbying...

Arsen Ray Arachelian says:

> And they can kiss my fat ass for all I care.  As long as crypto
> is legal there ain't a thing they can use that list for
> except to deny you jobs. 



Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as:

  (1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign  
persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design,  
development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing,  
repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization,  
destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or
  (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data  
controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United  
States or abroad.
  

Section #120.17 defines "Export" as:

  [paragraphs 1 - 4 skipped]
  

  (5) Performing a defense service on behalf of, or for the benefit  
of, a foreign person, whether in the United States or abroad; or
  

  [paragraph 6 skipped]


I expect that most on this list know that cryptographic software and  
systems with the capability of maintaining secrecy or confidentiality  
of information (excluding systems using cryptography for  
authentication purposes only) are considered export controlled  
defense articles.  (See section #121.1, Category XIII)

Posting instructions on how to use and/or build cryptographic  
software to a mailing list containing foreign persons could be  
interpreted by some as a violation the ITAR regulations.

However, I think they would have to stretch the point quite a bit,  
considering the fact that it is legal to export cryptography books  
and discuss cryptography with foreign nationals in an academic  
setting.  Also, the posted instructions could be considered  
"information in the public domain" (section #120.11), which is *not*  
subject to the ITAR regulations.  


My hypothesis:  The TLAs could shut down the cypherpunks mailing list  
(as it now exists) by dragging all the U.S. list members into court.   
The TLAs would probably lose the case, but they would still do a lot  
of damage to the lives of the U.S. list members.


Jim_Miller@suite.com

<<My hypothesis:  The TLAs could shut down the cypherpunks mailing list
(as it now exists) by dragging all the U.S. list members into court.
The TLAs would probably lose the case, but they would still do a lot
of damage to the lives of the U.S. list members.
>>

If they want to waste their money on this, let'em.  I'd be perfectly happy
to wind up in court to defend the cypherpunks.  (No I'm not a lawyer, but
I certainly won't be a sucker witness.)  Compared to what the DA's, and
judges make, my paycheck is peanuts, and I could do with a vacation.

If they want to fine me, fine, they won't be able to take much away from
me as I haven't got much.  They'll have to get in line with Visa as I owe
my cards about $3K :-)

Bottom line: it'll never happen.  there's 700 cypherpunks on this list.  Good
luck getting all of the US members in court.  It could drag on for years.
By that time we should have enough pressure applied to Clipper's juggular
veins to make it go the way of the Edsel.

This is most weird... the previous message of the same subject just appeared
now??  Did someone forward this old message to the list?  I wrote that a month
ago!

Is there a mailer problem?

Jim Miller says:
> Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as:
> 
>   (1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign  
> persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design,  
> development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing,  
> repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization,  
> destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or
>   (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data  
> controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United  
> States or abroad.

This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about
cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a
grotesque denial of my first amendment rights.

I wonder if I should hold an open enrollment cryptography class for
the sake of civil disobediance.

Perry

> Jim Miller says:
> > Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as:
> > 
> >   (1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign  
> > persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design,  
> > development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing,  
> > repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization,  
> > destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or
> >   (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data  
> > controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United  
> > States or abroad.
> 
> This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about
> cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a
> grotesque denial of my first amendment rights.
> 
> I wonder if I should hold an open enrollment cryptography class for
> the sake of civil disobediance.
> 
> Perry

Are there any bills being considered for congress which would remove
cryptography from the munitions umbrella ?

I think I remember this being talked about earlier on this list..has
it gone anywhere ?  (It was needed so that US companies could compete
with foreigners in this market or some such).

Obviously that ammendment is going to need further application if it
only affects export controls.

Are there any bills being considered for congress which would remove
   cryptography from the munitions umbrella ?

HR3627, sponsored by Maria Cantwell.

Eric

hughes@ah.com (Eric Hughes) wrote:

>    Are there any bills being considered for congress which would
>    remove cryptography from the munitions umbrella ?
> 
> HR3627, sponsored by Maria Cantwell.

EFF was soliciting letter in email for Rep. Cantwell that they would
print out and deliver.  Are they still doing this?  And what's the
status of the bill?

> >    Are there any bills being considered for congress which would
> >    remove cryptography from the munitions umbrella ?
> > 
> > HR3627, sponsored by Maria Cantwell.
> 
> EFF was soliciting letter in email for Rep. Cantwell that they would
> print out and deliver.  Are they still doing this?  And what's the
> status of the bill?
 
<cantwell@eff.org> still works to my knowlege, I haven't seen anything from
DC to the contrary.  The status is that it is sponsored and I don't know if
it's gone to commitee yet or not.  But it's still very alive.  
-- 
PGP PUBLIC KEY via finger!  JAFEFFM  Speaking & Thinking For Myself!
 
* eagle@deeptht.armory.com			email info@eff.org *
*** O U T L A W S  On The  E L E C T R O N I C  F R O N T I E R ****
***** Committed to Free Public Internet Access for World Peace *****

This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about
   cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a
   grotesque denial of my first amendment rights.

When this issue came up in a discussion on export control issues with
my employer's export control guru, he said that they basically never
bothered to enforce this in the case of open courses at colleges &
universities (because they knew it was unenforceable and
unconstitutional).

						- Bill

On Wed, 4 May 1994, Bill Sommerfeld wrote:

>    This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about
>    cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a
>    grotesque denial of my first amendment rights.

does that also mean that an american cannot use his/her knowledge overseas?
(btw im australian and therefore know nothing about american law)
> 
> When this issue came up in a discussion on export control issues with
> my employer's export control guru, he said that they basically never
> bothered to enforce this in the case of open courses at colleges &
> universities (because they knew it was unenforceable and
> unconstitutional).
>
good for him 
> 						- Bill



		 Yours in SYNC. Robert Sturtz
   __                                                                     __
__///       rsturt@wilbur.mbark.swin.oz.au      (Ice-Fox on irc)       __///
\XX/      Vice-President of Eastern Wargamers And Roleplayers Club     \XX/

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