PGP 2.6 is dangerous in the long term ?

Personally, I happen to dislike the PGP 2.6 saga; I think it's
effectively turning the wheel back viz. "US only software" as well
as confusing the issue ("oh, which PGP do you have ?"). 

Some say that it's not a problem in the sense that PGP 2.3a will be
upgraded to "support" PGP 2.6. Even this situation is clearly
undesirable as PGP itself becomes a fragmented product -- esp. as I
think "new users" will opt for PGP 2.6, and others will change too
because of the purported "legitimacy". The result is that PGP 2.6
_will_ become heavily adopted in the US.  This it not the point,
however.

As the RSA patent is expected to expire in the coming years, one would
expect the liberation of PGP, at least in terms of the RSA algorithm
(negating the export control issues). The sinister fact of PGP 2.6, and
other derived RSAREF product is that even as the patent itself expires,
RSADSI still exerts control over PGP by way of RSAREF.

Being Australian, I've not read the RSAREF conditions, but there is at
the point that commercial use will still not be possible (at it would
be under non-RSAREF 2.3a) when the RSA patent expires.

So quite possibly, PGP 2.6 is doing a great deal more longer term
damage to the viablity of PGP than is immediately obvious. Is this a
valid viewpoint ?


Matthew.

-- 
Matthew Gream
Consent Technologies
Sydney, (02) 821-2043
M.Gream@uts.edu.au

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    From: mgream@acacia.itd.uts.edu.au (Matthew Gream)
    Subject: PGP 2.6 is dangerous in the long term ?
    Date: Wed, 25 May 94 12:43:46 EST
    
    Being Australian, I've not read the RSAREF conditions, but there is at
    the point that commercial use will still not be possible (at it would
    be under non-RSAREF 2.3a) when the RSA patent expires.

The GNU copyleft is supposed to disallow a lot of for-profit uses.

Zeke

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Ezekial Palmer says:
> The GNU copyleft is supposed to disallow a lot of for-profit uses.

The GNU copyleft in no way prohibits any commercial use whatsoever.
Please do not spread inaccurate rumors about copyleft.

Perry

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    Subject: Re: PGP 2.6 is dangerous in the long term ? 
    Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 07:42:09 -0400
    From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@imsi.com>
    
    Ezekial Palmer says:
    > The GNU copyleft is supposed to disallow a lot of for-profit uses.
    
    The GNU copyleft in no way prohibits any commercial use whatsoever.
    Please do not spread inaccurate rumors about copyleft.

That's a pretty big statement and it's at least partly wrong.  Does
selling something count as a commercial use?  By using "for-profit"
instead of "commercial", I meant you're not supposed to profit
directly from the software, like by selling it.  Of course it's
possible to walk the line, but you have to be careful.

The way that Lucid's Energize development environment relates to their
version of GNU Emacs is a good example of establishing where the line
is and making it clear what's being sold, "for-profit", and what's
free.

Zeke

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anonymous@extropia.wimsey.com says:
>     From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry@imsi.com>
>     
>     Ezekial Palmer says:
>     > The GNU copyleft is supposed to disallow a lot of for-profit uses.
>     
>     The GNU copyleft in no way prohibits any commercial use whatsoever.
>     Please do not spread inaccurate rumors about copyleft.
> 
> That's a pretty big statement and it's at least partly wrong.  Does
> selling something count as a commercial use?

You are allowed to sell copylefted software. You just aren't allowed
to stop other people from then giving it away. There is no prohibition
on selling the software -- although one must remember that what you
end up charging is for the act of providing a copy and not for a
license for the software itself.

Perry

Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 07:38:05 -0700
   From: anonymous@extropia.wimsey.com

   Ezekial Palmer says:

   The GNU copyleft is supposed to disallow a lot of for-profit uses.

I think the word you're looking for is "proprietary".  I earn a living
from my commercial, for-profit, GPL'ed collection of packet drivers.
No reason why anyone can't do the same with PGP, absent stupid
software patents and stupid export restrictions.  There's a LOT of
room for adding value to PGP.

From: mgream@acacia.itd.uts.edu.au (Matthew Gream)
   Date: Wed, 25 May 94 12:43:46 EST
   Organization: University of Technology, Sydney.

   As the RSA patent is expected to expire in the coming years, one would
   expect the liberation of PGP, at least in terms of the RSA algorithm
   (negating the export control issues). The sinister fact of PGP 2.6, and
   other derived RSAREF product is that even as the patent itself expires,
   RSADSI still exerts control over PGP by way of RSAREF.

You have to assume that RSA isn't being run by idiots.  Either they're
looking at closing their doors in seven years, or they've got a plan.
If it were *my* company, I'd make sure that everyone depends on
running my software.  And since that's what I'd do, it's only
reasonable to assume that that's what RSA is trying to do.

So maybe what we (the c'punk community) need to do is maintain
parallel versions of PGP (ick), one which continues to use 100% GPL'ed
code, and another which uses RSAREF to stay legal.

-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>      ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav
Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key
11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX)    | Quakers do it in the light
Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.

On Tue, 24 May 1994, Russell Nelson wrote:

> So maybe what we (the c'punk community) need to do is maintain
> parallel versions of PGP (ick), one which continues to use 100% GPL'ed
> code, and another which uses RSAREF to stay legal.

I may be foolish, but...

What if (the cypherpunk community) comes out with a secure program that 
doesn't rely on RSAREF?  Can it be done?  

NOTE:  I very likely don't know what I'm talking about.

____        Robert A. Hayden          <=> hayden@krypton.mankato.msus.edu
\  /__          -=-=-=-=-             <=>          -=-=-=-=-
 \/  /   Finger for Geek Code Info    <=> Political Correctness is
   \/  Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1)  GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
		       n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

"Robert A. Hayden" says:
> I may be foolish, but...
> 
> What if (the cypherpunk community) comes out with a secure program that 
> doesn't rely on RSAREF?  Can it be done?  

I notice that you advertise a PGP 2.3a key.

Perry

You have to assume that RSA isn't being run by idiots.  Either they're
   looking at closing their doors in seven years, or they've got a plan.

I asked Jim Bidzos about this last year.  He told me they're planning
on becoming a supplier of cryptography code and expertise.  By using
patent protection to restrict distribution of other implementations,
they can sell their own libraries now and get them deployed.  After
the patents run out, they can rely on the cost of changeover and
copyright protection to keep a viable business running.

Plus they're going to continue to buy up patents.

Eric

Date: Wed, 25 May 94 10:25:30 -0700
   From: hughes@ah.com (Eric Hughes)

      You have to assume that RSA isn't being run by idiots.  Either they're
      looking at closing their doors in seven years, or they've got a plan.

   I asked Jim Bidzos about this last year.  He told me they're planning
   on becoming a supplier of cryptography code and expertise.

If they had expertise, they wouldn't need patents.

-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>      ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav
Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key
11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX)    | Quakers do it in the light
Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.

Russell Nelson says:
>    Date: Wed, 25 May 94 10:25:30 -0700
>    From: hughes@ah.com (Eric Hughes)
> 
>       You have to assume that RSA isn't being run by idiots.  Either they're
>       looking at closing their doors in seven years, or they've got a plan.
> 
>    I asked Jim Bidzos about this last year.  He told me they're planning
>    on becoming a supplier of cryptography code and expertise.
> 
> If they had expertise, they wouldn't need patents.

Make no mistake, they have expertise. As much as we like to denegrate
them, they are responsible for several algorithms we all use every
day, like MD5.

That said, I agree that the patents are unsavory. However, none of us
thus far have shown the testicular fortitude to challenge any of them.

Perry

In message <9405250243.AA03397@acacia.itd.uts.EDU.AU>you write:
  > As the RSA patent is expected to expire in the coming years, one would
  > expect the liberation of PGP, at least in terms of the RSA algorithm
  > (negating the export control issues). The sinister fact of PGP 2.6, and
  > other derived RSAREF product is that even as the patent itself expires,
  > RSADSI still exerts control over PGP by way of RSAREF.

I don't see this as a real worry. Once the use of RSA is legal worldwide, it
is fairly easy to just yank the RSAREF code and drop in functionally
equivalent, but legally unencumbered, code.  Or, everyone in the US/Canada
could just copy the compatable code from abroad.

Linn H. Stanton <stanton@acm.org>

The above opinions are exclusively my own. If anyone else wants them,
they can buy them from me. Easy terms can be arranged.
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