Re: As I delurk, a question... (Clipper)

>NSA doesn't seem particularly distressed that
>Clipper's LEAF can be spoofed and rendered unusable.  Could this
>indicate that the LEAF isn't really necessary to retrieve the session
>key after all?

Not necessarily. First of all, why would the NSA let it be known if they
are distressed? I'm amazed that they have started talking to the public at
all! Secondly, what do they hope to achieve with this whole Clipper thing?
Given that they are aware that strong crypto exists and is publicly
available around the world, what can they gain by pushing Clipper? Is it
some type of political influence in the U.S. that they'll get by winning
this round, or do they want the ability to spy on ordinary civilian and
U.S. government activity, or what? Whatever it is, if it isn't hurt by
people having PGP available, it isn't hurt by the small number of people
who would spoof LEAFs.

As I read the official pronouncements of representatives of the U.S.
government and especially the NSA, I can't figure out what they do hope to
achieve. Can anyone else on this list make sense of it?

 -- sidney markowitz <sidney@taurus.apple.com>

C'punks,

On Mon, 13 Jun 1994, Sidney Markowitz wrote:

> . . .
> As I read the official pronouncements of representatives of the U.S.
> government and especially the NSA, I can't figure out what they do hope to
> achieve. Can anyone else on this list make sense of it?

Remember the instructions for cooking a live frog.  The government does 
not intend to stop until they have effectively eliminated your privacy.

STEP 1:  Clipper becomes the de facto encryption standard.

STEP 2:  When Cypherpunks and other "criminals" eschew Clipper in favor
	 of trusted strong crypto, the government is "forced" to ban 
	 non-escrowed encryption systems.  (Gotta catch those pedophiles, 
	 drug dealers and terrorists, after all.)

STEP 3:  When Cypherpunks and other criminals use superencryption with 
	 Clipper or spoof LEAFs, the government will regretably be forced 
	 to engage in random message monitoring to detect these illegal 
	 techniques.

Each of these steps will be taken because we wouldn't passively accept 
such things as unrestricted wiretaps and reasonable precautions like 
digital telephony.  It will portrayed as our fault.  Count on it.

Will such a scenario come about?  Yes, if the government has its way.  No,
if Cypherpunks do their job.  I know the government will do its damnest,
but I'm betting on the Cypherpunks.  It's only us against all the
governments of the world.  (They haven't got a chance!)


 S a n d y

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In list.cypherpunks, sidney@taurus.apple.com writes:

>>NSA doesn't seem particularly distressed that
>>Clipper's LEAF can be spoofed and rendered unusable.  Could this
>>indicate that the LEAF isn't really necessary to retrieve the session
>>key after all?
> 
> Not necessarily. First of all, why would the NSA let it be known if they
> are distressed? I'm amazed that they have started talking to the public at
> all!

Good point, that.

> Secondly, what do they hope to achieve with this whole Clipper thing?
> Given that they are aware that strong crypto exists and is publicly
> available around the world, what can they gain by pushing Clipper?

That's the nagging question, isn't it?  If they admit that Clipper's
back door can be circumvented, and they admit that black hats will use
something else, then just whose mail do they want to read, anyway?

> As I read the official pronouncements of representatives of the U.S.
> government and especially the NSA, I can't figure out what they do hope to
> achieve. Can anyone else on this list make sense of it?

Not me, that's for sure.
- -- 
Roy M. Silvernail, writing from roy@sendai.cybrspc.mn.org
        "Anything but Nixon, man... a blender.  Anything!"
                       -- National Lampoon, when they were funny

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Roy M. Silvernail says:
> > Secondly, what do they hope to achieve with this whole Clipper thing?
> > Given that they are aware that strong crypto exists and is publicly
> > available around the world, what can they gain by pushing Clipper?
> 
> That's the nagging question, isn't it?

The motive seems obvious to me. Although they know they can't get
everyone, they hope to stop alternate standards and to get as much of
the traffic as they can. Its what I'd do in their shoes -- not that
I'd be in their shoes.

Perry