Re: PC Expo summary!!

rarachel@photon.poly.edu (Arsen Ray Arachelian):
>                   FEB 17  CYPHERPUNKS TRANSCRIPT
>     Copyright (C) 1994, cypherpunks@toad.com  All Rights Reserved.      
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wonder how the courts will interpret that ;)

Pats on the back to you for going ahead with the distribution of disks. 
It would be a good idea to put up the contents of the disk at some FTP site,
maybe soda.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh             "Clean the air! clean the sky! wash the wind!
rishab@dxm.ernet.in                   take stone from stone and wash them..."
Voice/Fax/Data +91 11 6853410  
Voicemail +91 11 3760335                 H 34C Saket, New Delhi 110017, INDIA

> rarachel@photon.poly.edu (Arsen Ray Arachelian):
> >                   FEB 17  CYPHERPUNKS TRANSCRIPT
> >     Copyright (C) 1994, cypherpunks@toad.com  All Rights Reserved.      
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I wonder how the courts will interpret that ;)

This will certainly put a nice toad up the NSA's ass.   Anyone reading this
will see that the cypherpunks are a bunch of folk that stick together as a
single entity whose purpose right now is to kill clipper.  (Right and if they
do, have I got a great bridge to sell them!)

Seriously though, I don't want this transcript to be butchered and quoted
from in some assinine magazine and have it pointed to as the reason we need
clipper.  At least with a copyright on its ass, it gets a bit harder to play
games.
 
> Pats on the back to you for going ahead with the distribution of disks. 
> It would be a good idea to put up the contents of the disk at some FTP site,
> maybe soda.

Will certainly do that. :-)  As a disk image.  But as I said, I have to fix
that bug first.  Also, look forward to seeing a few articles from your
column. :-)  Thanx for letting me use'em.

Arsen Ray Arachelian says:
> > rarachel@photon.poly.edu (Arsen Ray Arachelian):
> > >                   FEB 17  CYPHERPUNKS TRANSCRIPT
> > >     Copyright (C) 1994, cypherpunks@toad.com  All Rights Reserved.      
> >                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > I wonder how the courts will interpret that ;)
> 
> This will certainly put a nice toad up the NSA's ass.   Anyone reading this
> will see that the cypherpunks are a bunch of folk that stick together as a
> single entity whose purpose right now is to kill clipper.

That wasn't the topic of the discussion in question, actually. It was
largely just a discussion on cryptography in general and its
implications, slanted towards anarchists, who were the audiance being
addressed. Most of the population is extremely hostile to anarchism,
so from a PR point of view that talk isn't what you want. Also, it
unfairly makes it look like "cypherpunk" means "anarchist". Now, it
happpens that I am an anarchist, but that isn't what most people
associated with the term "cypherpunk" believe in, and it isn't fair to
paint them that way -- hell, many people on this mailing list are
overtly hostile to anarchism.

I don't want people to think you have to hate the idea of government
in order to like cryptography.

The copyright is also meaningless because a non-person (human or
corporate) cannot copyright something. Certainly an email address
can't hold a copyright. In any case I consider it a little odd that I
would not under your copyright be permitted to sell someone a copy of
my own words.

Lastly, I don't know what was on that disk exactly, but I've started
getting calls from random kooks about it. I find that a bit
disturbing. Did you leave my phone number on it or something?

Perry

> > > >                   FEB 17  CYPHERPUNKS TRANSCRIPT
> > > >     Copyright (C) 1994, cypherpunks@toad.com  All Rights Reserved.      
> > >                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > I wonder how the courts will interpret that ;)
> > 
> > This will certainly put a nice toad up the NSA's ass.   Anyone reading this
> > will see that the cypherpunks are a bunch of folk that stick together as a
> > single entity whose purpose right now is to kill clipper.
 
> That wasn't the topic of the discussion in question, actually. It was
> largely just a discussion on cryptography in general and its
> implications, slanted towards anarchists, who were the audiance being
> addressed. Most of the population is extremely hostile to anarchism,
> so from a PR point of view that talk isn't what you want. Also, it
> unfairly makes it look like "cypherpunk" means "anarchist". Now, it
> happpens that I am an anarchist, but that isn't what most people
> associated with the term "cypherpunk" believe in, and it isn't fair to
> paint them that way -- hell, many people on this mailing list are
> overtly hostile to anarchism.

I agree.  However, I was severely pressed for time, and this was the best
resource I could find that dealt with most of the issues dealing with Clipper.
I don't think it made anarchist==cypherpunk, though granted some folks would
take it that way.  Certainly a cypherpunk is nothing more than somone who
uses crypto for his privacy and demands strong crypto. However the transcript
did offer a lot of information as to what the uses are both legal and illegal
and what the dangers of weak crypto & clipper.

I did ask around for beginners articles & was told to write some up myself.
I would have, had I not been pressed for time.  As I said in the pc-expo
summary, I had to write lots of software, and weed though about 900 files that
I captured off this list to see what I can use.  None of them had as much raw
info as this file.  In the heading to this file, I did write "Please forgive
the political slant of this file and instead look at the info it provides"
or something like it.  While that won't really make much different for those
who'd say "Damn anarchists," it made me feel better. :-)

> I don't want people to think you have to hate the idea of government
> in order to like cryptography.

This wasn't my original intention, but unless someone (even myself) writes
a nice big text file on all the issues from clipper, to rsa, to patents to
pgp to even Tempest and IR face scans at the airport, this was the best resource
I could find.  Even Tim wasn't able to help out.   I had little choice.  IT
was either include this file and offend some readers, or don't include it and
leave them clueless.  Which would you rather had me do?

Now keep in mind that about 30% of the disk receivers will never see any
articles because of my big mistake in the installation script, and the rest
will figure out how to get it, or won't be interested so they won't see it...

> The copyright is also meaningless because a non-person (human or
> corporate) cannot copyright something. Certainly an email address
> can't hold a copyright. In any case I consider it a little odd that I
> would not under your copyright be permitted to sell someone a copy of
> my own words.

You obviously can sell someone a copy of it.  You wrote it, it's under your
copyright more than the cypherpunks.  You have to keep in mind that the visuals
of this disk were to make it look like some big corporation was putting out
demo software. Not a bunch of loosely connected folks who know each other
only via email (mostly anyway.)  Putting a copyright notice on it certainly
brings this out more.  Also the title of the disk wasn't "Cypherpunks Disks"
it was "Data Security & Privacy\n A Free Software Demo"  In small letters
it stated that PGP & SecureDevice & WNS were on the disk.

I also put "For demo/educational uses only" and "NOT FOR EXPORT"  All this
lends itself to look professional rather than freewareish.  I'll send ya
a copy of the disk if you like; you'll see that the installer program is also
of the "professional" look & feel.  Or at least as much as I could make it
look professional in the short time that I had.

> Lastly, I don't know what was on that disk exactly, but I've started
> getting calls from random kooks about it. I find that a bit
> disturbing. Did you leave my phone number on it or something?

Nope. Not unless you're in the phone book.  The random cooks could be
press folks as I did give out quite a few copies to them.  So try & find out
if they are or not.  If anything, you can tell'em I did the disk and give'em
my work number (212-412-8475) and I'll deal with them.

The only thing referring to you was your name.  I don't think I even included
your email address... I did include "for more info, send email to cypherpunks@
toad.com" and told them how to subscribe and to expect tons of email if they
do.  I didn't even put my address on it.  My name is only on the copyright
notices of the installer, menu, and file viewer programs.  I didn't put my
email address\, nor phone number, nor anything else except my name on the disk.

As far as copyright is concerned, while we are just a "mailing list" we can
also be thought as an organization.  We are "organized" and our address is
only on the internet.  The method of organization is anarchy.  None the less
we aren't any less of an organization than any other.  We just don't operate
in the same way IBM or MicroSoft, or EFF or EPIC does.  Does that mean we
can't copyright stuff in the cypherpunks name?  I don't know, I'm not a lawyer
and I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold true infront of a 
copyright judge or a copyright lawyer.  None the less, it was put there for
effect and it did its job for effect, not for copyright.


If you want to sell the disk, you can't, except for the cost of duplicating
the disk. ie: user groups, etc.  If you want to sell your speech, you can.
It's yours and nobody claims any copyright owenership to it.  If Dave Mandl
wants to sell it, he too can. :-)  Now I wouldn't be able to sell it and I
haven't, and neither can any cypherpunk on this list.   Again the disk itself
is copyrighted as a collection.  I didn't claim that cypherpunks had ownership
of PGP, WinPGP, WNSTORM, SecureDevice, or the articles.  Infact a lot of the
Wired articles were on it (with their own copyright notices of course.)  If
the Libertarians want to "Sell" copies of the transcript I guess they could if
it were okay with you and Dave.

(For those of you unfamiliar with a collection copyright, it's basically a
copyright on a collection of things that are either copyrighted or public
domain (if they're copyrighted, they can still be distributed, but that
strongly depends on the real owner of the copyright.)  If someone else takes
the same collection of files and sells it, he is violating the collection
copyright.)

Now all this aside, I doubt that I'd actually go and sue PC Magazine for
selling the disks at $100 a pop.  Of course the guy getting his hands on the
disk might notice he was had, but that's another thing.

First, what Arsen Ray A. did at PC-Expo was admirable. I haven't
criticized it in any way.

However, my name comes up in two ways here, so I wish to comment.

* the "focus" on cryptoanarchy, which, as Perry M. noted may not be
the best introductory material. This has also come up in connection
with newcomers like Sherry Mayo discovering our group through URLs
that are out there and being put off by the putative focus, based on
the article the URL compilers have selected for inclusion.

* my alleged inability or unwillingness to help Arsen Ray A.

I'll use Arsen's article as the basis for comment:


> I agree.  However, I was severely pressed for time, and this was the best
> resource I could find that dealt with most of the issues dealing with Clipper.

Well, I understand the pressures of time :-}. But Arsen first
mentioned the PC-Expo diskette project in late April or early May,
according to my archives, so there were 7 to 9 weeks to put articles
together. Granted, people did not respond to calls to write tutorials,
but that's to be expected, for some good and some human nature
reasons. Face it, people just don't write free articles. Or "stone
soup" articles ("Hey, here's the title...now you fill in the
details.").

Besides, a truly vast amount of stuff has already been written on
Clipper, on escrow in general, on Digital Telephony, etc. Articles
that were posted to Cypherpunks may not be salable in toto, but
certainly excerpts fall under the "fair use" standards (I routinely
snatch phrases and paragraphs, with attribution, for the FAQ I'm still
trying to get finished).

So I am not overly sympathetic to the claims that nothing was
available. Or that Cypherpunks would not write stuff for the PC-Expo
diskettes! (I don't mean this to be harsh to Arsen...just a factual
comment on his article.)

> I don't think it made anarchist==cypherpunk, though granted some folks would
> take it that way.  Certainly a cypherpunk is nothing more than somone who
> uses crypto for his privacy and demands strong crypto. However the transcript
> did offer a lot of information as to what the uses are both legal and illegal
> and what the dangers of weak crypto & clipper.

I think the Dave Mandl-Perry Metzger piece was fine. Not likely to get
people to use crypto, but it may recruit some libertarians and
anarchists to our cause--and that is always good!

> I did ask around for beginners articles & was told to write some up myself.
> I would have, had I not been pressed for time.  As I said in the pc-expo
> summary, I had to write lots of software, and weed though about 900 files that
> I captured off this list to see what I can use.  None of them had as much raw

I was asked to either write something up for this diskette, or to
"mosh together" some of my essays. I declined, feeling it was Arsen's
project and that he should write the connective material
himself...good experience in learning to write a tutorial, etc. I'm
also skeptical about the need for more essays on why Clipper is
bad....anybody who hasn't already read about 30 articles and
editorials on Clipper has been living in a cave for the past 14 months.


> This wasn't my original intention, but unless someone (even myself) writes
> a nice big text file on all the issues from clipper, to rsa, to patents to
> pgp to even Tempest and IR face scans at the airport, this was the best resource
> I could find.  Even Tim wasn't able to help out.   I had little choice.  IT
> was either include this file and offend some readers, or don't include it and
> leave them clueless.  Which would you rather had me do?

"Tim wasn't able to help out" for the reasons mentioned above. And
even had I been willing to, I got the urgent message from Arsen just a
few days before the deadline (I can check my records, but it was
recently). (Don't say "I" knew the deadline since April....I never
volunteered to write essays on a custom basis for this project.)


About the "Copyright Cypherpunks" blurb:

> You obviously can sell someone a copy of it.  You wrote it, it's under your
> copyright more than the cypherpunks.  You have to keep in mind that the visuals
> of this disk were to make it look like some big corporation was putting out
> demo software. Not a bunch of loosely connected folks who know each other
> only via email (mostly anyway.)  Putting a copyright notice on it certainly
> brings this out more.  Also the title of the disk wasn't "Cypherpunks Disks"
> it was "Data Security & Privacy\n A Free Software Demo"  In small letters
> it stated that PGP & SecureDevice & WNS were on the disk.

Had that been an interview I gave, I'd've been pissed off to see
someone else attach the "Copyright Cypherpunks" blurb on my words.
Even with my permission (and I assume Dave Mandl and Perry Metzger
were asked for permission), attaching the words "Copyright
Cypherpunks" is misleading: Cypherpunks are not an organized group.
Issuing things in their name creates a misleading impression....and
might, very unlikely though it is, create some kind of legal pressures
on us. (An advantage to our disorganization is that governments can't
find anyone to prosecute for the crimes of the "group.")


> As far as copyright is concerned, while we are just a "mailing list" we can
> also be thought as an organization.  We are "organized" and our address is
> only on the internet.  The method of organization is anarchy.  None the less
> we aren't any less of an organization than any other.  We just don't operate
> in the same way IBM or MicroSoft, or EFF or EPIC does.  Does that mean we
> can't copyright stuff in the cypherpunks name?  I don't know, I'm not a lawyer
> and I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold true infront of a 
> copyright judge or a copyright lawyer.  None the less, it was put there for
> effect and it did its job for effect, not for copyright.

The main problem is one of taste. If I attached a Cypherpunks
copyright on my latest video, "Debbie Does Fort Meade," folks here
might be upset. (I'm not saying Arsen's thing was all that
serious--most likely the essay was read by exactly 7 people, 6 of whom
have forgotten it, and 1 of whom is wondering why his mail to the
incorrect address "cypherpunks@toad.com" is going unanswered.)

Again, I congratulate Arsen for his intitiative. I don't cotten to his
denunciation of us a few days for somehow failing him, though. The job
of an editor is not an easy one; it's a lot more than just announcing
a project and then waiting for others to finish the work. (This
apprach rarely works even when _money_ is offered, let alone when the
work is for free, etc.)

I've spent entirely too much time writing articles for Cyphepunks, so
I am bemused to see charges that Cypherpunks are not doing enough.


--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

> First, what Arsen Ray A. did at PC-Expo was admirable. I haven't
> criticized it in any way.

Please, call me Ray. :-)  Nevermind what Poly tells ya. :-)

I thank you, although there is room for criticism. :-)  I did screw up a couple
of things as I did mention earlier.  But at least now there's a precedent so
that others elsewhere can do the same thing, and will be able to do it
without that bug.
 
> However, my name comes up in two ways here, so I wish to comment.
> 
> * the "focus" on cryptoanarchy, which, as Perry M. noted may not be
> the best introductory material. This has also come up in connection
> with newcomers like Sherry Mayo discovering our group through URLs
> that are out there and being put off by the putative focus, based on
> the article the URL compilers have selected for inclusion.

Agreed, but I had little else that would make as much of a difference.
 
> * my alleged inability or unwillingness to help Arsen Ray A.
> 
> I'll use Arsen's article as the basis for comment:
> 
> > I agree.  However, I was severely pressed for time, and this was the best
> > resource I could find that dealt with most of the issues dealing with Clipper.
> 
> Well, I understand the pressures of time :-}. But Arsen first
> mentioned the PC-Expo diskette project in late April or early May,
> according to my archives, so there were 7 to 9 weeks to put articles
> together. Granted, people did not respond to calls to write tutorials,
> but that's to be expected, for some good and some human nature
> reasons. Face it, people just don't write free articles. Or "stone
> soup" articles ("Hey, here's the title...now you fill in the
> details.").

Yes, quite true.  At that time I was working part time and had a lot of spare
time to work with.  I was basically collecting posts from the lists which I
would consider using.  Come May however, my free time dropped to almost zero.
Again, this is nothing but hindsight, but what's done is done.  Let's hope
for the best result.
 
> Besides, a truly vast amount of stuff has already been written on
> Clipper, on escrow in general, on Digital Telephony, etc. Articles
> that were posted to Cypherpunks may not be salable in toto, but
> certainly excerpts fall under the "fair use" standards (I routinely
> snatch phrases and paragraphs, with attribution, for the FAQ I'm still
> trying to get finished).

Again, PC Expo was Tuesday.  I finished the disk between Sunday and Monday.
I barely had enough time to put the stuff that I did manage to put on the
disk.  I didn't have time to clip quotes out of articles though I intended
to do so.  However Wired's articles on the Cypherpunks & Clipper were very
handy and did make their way on the disk. 
 
> So I am not overly sympathetic to the claims that nothing was
> available. Or that Cypherpunks would not write stuff for the PC-Expo
> diskettes! (I don't mean this to be harsh to Arsen...just a factual
> comment on his article.)

Most of my bitching was directed to those punx who volunteered then backed
out.  Sorry if this wasn't clear.  Yes, there were plenty of articles, but
I did not have them all available to me.  All in all, the Wired articles and
the Transcript were the best of the crop.  The others were tidbits of sorts
and didn't quite fit in as the Uncypherpunk's Manual to Cypherpunk issues.
:-)  I asked you for material because A) You wrote tons of it, B) I was
hoping you had some around which you could forward to me, or C) you had
or would have written something ; D) which I asked was if you could mosh
something together as you mention further on..

This wasn't a "Tim, he didn't help out at all."  You did, I did have some 
of your posts on the disk; but not much in terms of what was needed.

> I think the Dave Mandl-Perry Metzger piece was fine. Not likely to get
> people to use crypto, but it may recruit some libertarians and
> anarchists to our cause--and that is always good!

But perhaps some will use it anyway, even if they have qualms about the
transcript. :-)  Let's hope that in the least it helped spread PGP a bit
further. 
 
> I was asked to either write something up for this diskette, or to
> "mosh together" some of my essays. I declined, feeling it was Arsen's
> project and that he should write the connective material
> himself...good experience in learning to write a tutorial, etc. I'm
> also skeptical about the need for more essays on why Clipper is
> bad....anybody who hasn't already read about 30 articles and
> editorials on Clipper has been living in a cave for the past 14 months.
 
Which I would have if I had the time or the foresight to start such an article
ahead of time instead of thinking I had captured enough from the list.  I
perhaps will do so for future disks, etc.  Again, I know you are busy and
would not have asked if I wasn't under a lot of time stress..

> Had that been an interview I gave, I'd've been pissed off to see
> someone else attach the "Copyright Cypherpunks" blurb on my words.
> Even with my permission (and I assume Dave Mandl and Perry Metzger
> were asked for permission), attaching the words "Copyright
> Cypherpunks" is misleading: Cypherpunks are not an organized group.
> Issuing things in their name creates a misleading impression....and
> might, very unlikely though it is, create some kind of legal pressures
> on us. (An advantage to our disorganization is that governments can't
> find anyone to prosecute for the crimes of the "group.")

Well what did you want me to do with those who were interested?  Not put
any sort of contact info on there whatsoever?  Certainly the copyright
on that particular transcript may be misleading, but are Perry and Dave
non-cypherpunks?  Well, never mind, I'm painting myself in a corner here.
Certainly, Dave and Perry own the copyright to this. I conceeded that point
many a time.
 
> > As far as copyright is concerned, while we are just a "mailing list" we can
> > also be thought as an organization.  We are "organized" and our address is
> > only on the internet.  The method of organization is anarchy.  None the less
> > we aren't any less of an organization than any other.  We just don't operate
> > in the same way IBM or MicroSoft, or EFF or EPIC does.  Does that mean we
> > can't copyright stuff in the cypherpunks name?  I don't know, I'm not a lawyer
> > and I agree with you that it probably wouldn't hold true infront of a 
> > copyright judge or a copyright lawyer.  None the less, it was put there for
> > effect and it did its job for effect, not for copyright.
> 
> The main problem is one of taste. If I attached a Cypherpunks
> copyright on my latest video, "Debbie Does Fort Meade," folks here
> might be upset. (I'm not saying Arsen's thing was all that
> serious--most likely the essay was read by exactly 7 people, 6 of whom
> have forgotten it, and 1 of whom is wondering why his mail to the
> incorrect address "cypherpunks@toad.com" is going unanswered.)

What's wrong with "cypherpunks@toad.com?"  I certainly send messages to that
address, and get replies, even if I write from a different machine because
most folks will do a cc:cypherpunks to a reply, so their reply goes to both
cypherpunks and the email address of the person they're responding to.

I certainly wouldn't be upset about Debbie Does Fort Meade. :-)  Nonetheless
it was a speech given by two cypherpunks.  If someone in an organization does
something you dislike, it doesn't pull him out of that organization necessarily
and again, the transcript was labeled "Crypto-anarchy" with a blurb about
"cypherpunks Perry Metzger & Dave Mandl" at least that was on the flyer which
announced the meeting.

I disagree that we shouldn't put copyright notices on future diskettes
simply because of appearances which I mentioned in the post to Perry.  I
strongly feel that putting a shitty looking diskette with out making it look
professional will hurt more than help.  As you've said, since we're not quite
that organized, we are shielded from some government problems, but putting
a copyright notice in the cypherpunks name doesn't really expose us to
any problems as there is no real organization to the cypherpunks.

We can certainly explore this point further.
 
> Again, I congratulate Arsen for his intitiative. I don't cotten to his
> denunciation of us a few days for somehow failing him, though. The job
> of an editor is not an easy one; it's a lot more than just announcing
> a project and then waiting for others to finish the work. (This
> apprach rarely works even when _money_ is offered, let alone when the
> work is for free, etc.)
> 
> I've spent entirely too much time writing articles for Cyphepunks, so
> I am bemused to see charges that Cypherpunks are not doing enough.

I agree that you've done lots and I've done some, and others have pitched
in.  But out of all the 700 cpunx on the list or whatever majordomo will
report, what percetange have sat on our asses and done nothing?  If you
have written and worked, I do not believe that you would think my diatribes
were aimed at you.  Granted I did mention your name, but I did not imply
you were not doing enough.  I stated that you were "unable" to help, and
that was in the context of the PC Expo project.  That doesn't reflect any
other work you've done for other projects.

Anyway, I was damned stressed out and am sure that when others will scrutinize
the whole disk, byte for byte, and my actions they may find other glitches.
If I have put you on the spot, it was not intentional.  I'm still a bit
burned out from that two day marathon of completing the disk.  I was far
more concerned with getting more folks to get off their asses and do something
than pointing the finger at others for my shortcommings.

I DO hope that all "bugs" (be they software, or wetware) involved in this
project won't hurt future projects.  Perhaps by the time the next Expo will
occur, you'd have finished the FAQ and it would be useful for it.  Too bad
Dickweiler turned psycopath before finishing a decent FAQ.

One word of advice for the future my droogs:  If you write something spiffy,
please consider allowing me and anyone else who might do an Expo raid to use
your articles.  And perhaps we can write more magazine style articles than
just argue over the finer points of a thread.  I can include threads, yes,
but there are always imbeciles who have qualms about having their words
appear elsewhere.  I don't agree with them, but I have to respect their
wishes.  If you'd ease up a bit, your words will do a far greater service.

And for the rest of you, find out if there's any Expos around your town and
join in the raids.  I'll be glad to help you put together a disk, etc.  Even
if your town doesn't have Expos, see if you could give out the disks to
local user groups, or organizations who would be interested, but may not
be aware of PGP et al.