Re: No SKE in Daytona and other goodies (fwd)

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Tim May disses "that one guy" thusly:

> Oh please! Just how many times am I supposed to repeat my point that I make
> no claims that any imminent release of Chicago or Daytona or System 7.2 is
> likely to have SKE included? I've pointed out that the TIS algorithm is
> only now being coded, but that the *general field* of key escrow seems to
> involve some behind-the-scenes manouverings which should give us all pause.

No doubt. But what does the OS provider gain from including encryption
in the OS? At present, customers aren't demanding it. Why add SKE at
all when no one's asking for it?

Apple is able to export System 7 Pro right now because it uses 40-bit
RC2/RC4 for some limited client-server stream encryption. It won't do
file or disk encryption.

> The real issue is just how all the work on SKE described in the Denning
> conference coming up in September (the full agenda is posted in the crypto
> newsgroups) is to be implemented if *not* by the OS and system software
> vendors.

Remember that all these vendors want to sell OSes *and* to control the
future of that particular technology. I'd bet that MS At Work is where
Microsoft is most interested.

FWIW I agree with Tim: it's time to start asking the OS vendors some
hard questions. I'll volunteer to talk to Apple. Tim & Blanc Weber
seem to have good wires into Microsoft.

Bill Stewart's suggestion about shareholder resolutions is a good one,
too, for those who are shareholders of the various companies.

Finally, never forget the power of "divide & conquer"; if MS does
something unpalatable, that gives Novell, Apple, et al a reason _not_
to do that same thing.

- -Paul

- -- 
Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG      | "Information is the currency of democracy."
perobich@ingr.com           |     - some old guy named Thomas Jefferson
	       Of course I don't speak for Intergraph.
	       

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Paul Robichaux writes:

> No doubt. But what does the OS provider gain from including encryption
> in the OS? At present, customers aren't demanding it. Why add SKE at
> all when no one's asking for it?

Ah, the exact question for us to be asking! "Why add SKE at all when
no one's asking for it?" Indeed.

Why the upcoming conference on key escrow? Why the representatives
from Germany, Netherlands, France, etc.?

Where is the public debate about these things? (I'm not claiming, by
the way, that corporations have to debate with the public before
developing features--I'm a free market sort. But it's clear that more
than just isolated product developments are involved. The extent of
collusion between vendors and goverments is unclear, but signs point
to such collusion.)

> FWIW I agree with Tim: it's time to start asking the OS vendors some
> hard questions. I'll volunteer to talk to Apple. Tim & Blanc Weber
> seem to have good wires into Microsoft.

We may be able to rally enough opposition this time around to make
work on SKE an "unsocial" thing to do (Recall our strategy of making
Clipper vendors corporate outcasts, with our "Big Brother Inside"
approach?).

> Finally, never forget the power of "divide & conquer"; if MS does
> something unpalatable, that gives Novell, Apple, et al a reason _not_
> to do that same thing.

"Just say 'No" to key escrow."

--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Timothy C. May:
> We may be able to rally enough opposition this time around to make
> work on SKE an "unsocial" thing to do (Recall our strategy of making
> Clipper vendors corporate outcasts, with our "Big Brother Inside"
> approach?).

Um, how much good has this actually done?

Kragen

> 
> Timothy C. May:
> > We may be able to rally enough opposition this time around to make
> > work on SKE an "unsocial" thing to do (Recall our strategy of making
> > Clipper vendors corporate outcasts, with our "Big Brother Inside"
> > approach?).
> 
> Um, how much good has this actually done?
> 
> Kragen

I'd say it's pretty obvious, from the many articles, editorials, etc.
against Clipper. Cypherpunks were by no means the only, or even the
dominant, factor. Many factors were involved.

Clipper became a national joke, with 80% of polled Americans against
it. And corporations were loathe to associate themselves with it,
especially after the initial, highly-negative reaction.

A campaign of ridicule is often effective.

If and when Microsoft unveils government-friendly key escrow, I expect
we'll be ready with some nice slogans...I know I will!


--Tim May, coiner of "Big Brother Inside" and other slogans.


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Someone hacked me into this list, but I am no longer interested in this 
stuff. I never received anything instructional regarding how to remove 
myself from the list. Assistance would be appreciated. Thanks.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FNORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tommy the cat is my name,  /\  To achieve independence from alien domination
And I say unto Thee:     /    \  and to consolidate revolutionary gains, five
-----------------------/ MediaK \  steps are necessary: ---------------------

The correct and sensible thing for Microsoft to do is to put
hooks in their OS whereby a convenient interface can be provided
to any encryption system.

They may well do this, and (truthfully) tell the US they are 
providing infrastructure for key escrow and (truthfully) tell
cypherpunks they are providing infrastructure for crypto anarchy.
and (truthfully) tell shareholders that they are preparing
their operating system for a world of world wide networks.

This would be the archetypical Bill Gates maneuver.

So before screaming at them, let us see what they are doing.
-- 
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We have the right to defend ourselves and our
property, because of the kind of animals that we              James A. Donald
are.  True law derives from this right, not from
the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.                jamesd@netcom.com