Government and Repression

Rishab Aiyer Ghosh writes                                               ind!

>I'm amazed at the way some of you keep screaming about the violence of
>governments. Maybe you need to experience some _real_ repression.

   I disagree: In the U. S. we have real repression. Current real total
taxation is approx. 45%. I believe the serfs of Europe only paid a
small amount above 1/12 of their production to their lords. That's a
little in excess of 8.3% We revolted against English rule for taxation
that was tiny compared to current burden.

   Also, we are currently starving out Iraq, Cuba, & Haiti with embargoes
as well as doing other atrocities. Our State is currently systematically
ending our freedoms & is developing Hell weapons in Black Labs for
domestic use. To say that we're ok because other oppressors are worse
than ours is slave talk.

                                           PUSH EM BACK! PUSH EM BACK!
                                           WWWAAAYYY  BBBAAACCCK!
                                           BBBEEEAAATTTT  STATE!
                                           Gary Jeffers

In article <9408311821.AA03287@toad.com>,
Gary Jeffers <CCGARY@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu> wrote:
>Rishab Aiyer Ghosh writes                                               ind!
>
>>I'm amazed at the way some of you keep screaming about the violence of
>>governments. Maybe you need to experience some _real_ repression.
>
>   I disagree: In the U. S. we have real repression. Current real total
>taxation is approx. 45%. I believe the serfs of Europe only paid a
>small amount above 1/12 of their production to their lords. That's a
>little in excess of 8.3% We revolted against English rule for taxation
>that was tiny compared to current burden.

More to the point, the United States has the highest percentage of
 its population in prisons (according to Amnesty International
 statistics).  Enough to swing an election.

That's compared to the entire world, and this was the case before
 the USSR dissolved.  The only country ahead of us then was South
 Africa, and we passed them -- before their government changed.

This *is* a country under heavy oppression -- it's just arranged so
 that it's next to invisible to the people who aren't in prison or
 don't know anybody there.  We're also trained to think that we're
 living in a dangerous time by the mass media, while statistics simply
 don't bear this out.

People are regularly prosecuted multiple times for the same offense;
 The mumbo-jumbo of "different sovereigns" doesn't change this fact.

Property is regularly confiscated without due process: due process
 must be followed to retrieve said property.  Even without a 
 conviction.

Under the new Crime Law, people can be hauled off and tested for
 HIV infection merely by being accused of a sex crime.

If you don't call this real violence, I don't what you call it -- does
 it matter if the victims are anonymously disappeared or if others
 know that they're in prison?

Nobody seems to care because Cop Shows tell everyone that it's all for
 our own good.  Thank you sir, may I have another.

(Sorry for the rant.)
-- 
L. Todd Masco  | "Which part of 'shall not be infringed' didn't
cactus@bb.com  |   you understand?"

L. Todd Masco writes
> More to the point, the United States has the highest percentage of
>  its population in prisons (according to Amnesty International
>  statistics).  Enough to swing an election.

To put this proper perspective you should remember that the
US has the most pleasant prisons in the world.

In most of the world, indiscipline and bad behavior in the
prison will get you beaten, unofficially in Australia, officially
in Japan.  (Yes, *corporal punishment*, gasp, oh the horror).

In much of Africa they do not feed prisoners.  If your relatives
know where you are and care about you they feed you.  If they
do not, you starve.

The reason for this strange generosity is creative 
lawyering with the "cruel and unusual punishment 
provisions"  Remember that every time the prison 
authorities lose a "cruel and unusual punishment" 
case, their budget automatically increases.  Needless 
to say they have been industriously losing ever 
more absurd "cruel and unusual punishment" cases.



-- 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our
property, because of the kind of animals that we              James A. Donald
are.  True law derives from this right, not from
the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.                jamesd@netcom.com

On Aug 31,  2:15pm, James A. Donald wrote:
> To put this proper perspective you should remember that the
> US has the most pleasant prisons in the world.

On whose reconning?!  At the very least, the US is one of the largest users
of capital punishment - including being one of the few countries where
children can be tried as adults and executed - which sounds very comfortable
to me.  And let's not forget the rather unpleasant physical and sexual
assault statistics which are noticed in prisons worldwide, which includes
the USA.

> In most of the world, indiscipline and bad behavior in the
> prison will get you beaten, unofficially in Australia, officially
> in Japan.  (Yes, *corporal punishment*, gasp, oh the horror).

Want to back this up with some reliable references?  I am very aware of
the criticisms of the Australian prison systems, and would be the first
to agree that massive reform is needed.  But I have never seen reference
to this, and don't believe that it would be possible to supress it in
this circumstance.

						Ian.

On Thu, 1 Sep 1994, Ian Farquhar wrote:

> On Aug 31,  2:15pm, James A. Donald wrote:
> > To put this proper perspective you should remember that the
> > US has the most pleasant prisons in the world.
> 
> On whose reconning?!  At the very least, the US is one of the largest users
> of capital punishment...

  AH hem, that was prison system not judicual system, which is true;
the only people who have a better (and both are free I might add) dental plan
are the US senators [!]

> - including being one of the few countries where
> children can be tried as adults and executed - which sounds very comfortable
> to me.

 If someone tries to blow my brains half way across the room I don't care 
if he's 17 because his birthday was yesterday or 16 because his birthday is
day after tomarrow.
  Play like the big boys--PAY like the big boys.


>  And let's not forget the rather unpleasant physical and sexual
> assault statistics which are noticed in prisons worldwide, which includes
> the USA.

  do you have some statistics which says the USA has a significantly higher 
rate to compensate that free dental plan?

> > In most of the world, indiscipline and bad behavior in the
> > prison will get you beaten, unofficially in Australia, officially
> > in Japan.  (Yes, *corporal punishment*, gasp, oh the horror).
> 
> Want to back this up with some reliable references?  I am very aware of
> the criticisms of the Australian prison systems, and would be the first
> to agree that massive reform is needed.  But I have never seen reference
> to this, and don't believe that it would be possible to supress it in
> this circumstance.
> 
> 						Ian.

Wouldn't know anything about this....


Saeed Yusuf
--
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> 
> 
> 
>

On Aug 31,  4:08pm, yusuf921 wrote:
>  If someone tries to blow my brains half way across the room I don't care
> if he's 17 because his birthday was yesterday or 16 because his birthday is
> day after tomarrow.
>   Play like the big boys--PAY like the big boys.

But he doesn't play like the "big boys".  For one thing, the kid doesn't
enjoy the full rights of an adult in other respects - voting and
representation - and so has not had the right to vote draconian and immoral
laws (the very laws you want to subject him to) out of existance.

Slightly off topic, but I have always felt that the quality of the education
system could be IMMENSELY improved by giving kids the vote at age 10 or 12,
and thus making the politicians realise that there were political implications
in treating the education system as a barely necessary irritation.

Of course, you've got to question whether capital punishment is _ever_
justified, and I would argue that it isn't.  This is way, way off the topic
of cypherpunks, and I don't intend to get into that discussion on this
forum.  I am very glad to live in a country which has signed international
conventions which prohibit it indulging in brutal and callous judicial
murder of a person, despite the occasional state government loony who
pines for the good old days.

> >  And let's not forget the rather unpleasant physical and sexual
> > assault statistics which are noticed in prisons worldwide, which includes
> > the USA.

>   do you have some statistics which says the USA has a significantly higher
> rate to compensate that free dental plan?

I don't believe that it has: from memory it was pretty much average in this
regard.  My point was that the original poster's statement that the US has
the most "pleasant" prisons in the world when this can happen at all is
utterly ridiculous.

						Ian.