Snore...Re: e$: buyinfo, internet commerce, and GMU

Longtime c'punks push D now...

Just in case we have a zillion newbies, which I doubt, but judging from the
email I've gotten on the PJD piece, I can't tell...

I'm at GMU, as are Peter J Denning, the SO of Dorothy Denning, and lots of
other folks who agree or disagree with c'punks, including the department of
PSOL which is a spinnoff of the Econ department (which hard-core
pro-market), Brad Cox of Objective C and superdistribution fame, etc. Peter
was my MS/CS advisor, and may still be my PhD commitee chair.  Please at
least look at the .sig.

  tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)  writes:
>> There are some people from GMU (Program on Social and Organizational
>> Learning") talking [stuff elided]
> Brad Cox at GMU is one of the "superdistribution" advocates. In
> addition to his article in the latest "Wired," he's had pieces in
> "Byte" and elsewhere.

The GMU econ/PSOL folks were heavily into AMIX, which was a commercial
faliure.

Cox is getting a lot of press and is positioning his team to get some
serious NIS&T money. There are serious privacy problems with Cox's
superdistribution. There may be solutions, but so far, nothing that I've
seen mitigates the 1984 aspects of Cox's ideas.

I agree with Tim's comments on the snore factor of IMP-interest. Those folks
couldn't get past credit, let alone get into untracable digital cash.

If you take the time to read the PJD post that I sent out, even non-c'punks
see digital cash, credentials without identity, and other technological
ideas as both good and inevitable. Of course, six months ago, it looked like
eric and sandy were starting the first intergalictic bank of e$. I was ready
to sign up and deposit real money so I could join Tim in the Caribbean RSN.

> I'm gonna miss these parties when I move to the Caribbean!)
Gee, I thought you got 180 days in country once you are an official
Ex-patriot. That is a lot of partying...


Yo Tim, where is the F-ing FAQ so the newbies can have a clue?

Pat

Pat Farrell      Grad Student                 pfarrell@cs.gmu.edu
Department of Computer Science    George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
Public key availble via finger          #include <standard.disclaimer>

> Cox is getting a lot of press and is positioning his team to get some
> serious NIS&T money. There are serious privacy problems with Cox's
> superdistribution. There may be solutions, but so far, nothing that I've
> seen mitigates the 1984 aspects of Cox's ideas.

Can you elaborate on that? I've been pushing what I understand to be
superdistribution (although never by that name) forever (as measured
in 20 yr old time) and I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the aspects
of which you speak. Has he proposed some sort of nightmarish enforcement
system?

Cheers,

Jason W. Solinsky

> 
> > Cox is getting a lot of press and is positioning his team to get some
> > serious NIS&T money. There are serious privacy problems with Cox's
> > superdistribution. There may be solutions, but so far, nothing that I've
> > seen mitigates the 1984 aspects of Cox's ideas.
> 
> Can you elaborate on that? I've been pushing what I understand to be
> superdistribution (although never by that name) forever (as measured
> in 20 yr old time) and I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the aspects
> of which you speak. Has he proposed some sort of nightmarish enforcement
> system?
> 

Jason (and others),

I cited some references in my long post a few hours ago: the "Wired"
article, the "Out of Control" book, "Byte," "Dr. Dobbs" (I think),
etc. A search of Current Contents and Reader's Guide to Periodical
Literature would reveal articles. 

Anyone working on these issues should dig up all of these articles and
spend the time necessary to read them carefully. Failing that, to make
an effort to at least know the main players. Reading Schneier,
skimming the past volumes of the "Crypto" conferences, and keeping
current with the mainstream magazines and journals (CACM, Sci. Am.,
Computer, Dr. Dobbs, and Byte) should do nicely.

Pat's assessment of Brad Cox's approach--in line with my own
assessment--will not be spelled out in any of these articles,
naturally. How things "ought" to be done is a judgement that comes
from experience, reading the literature, etc.

Whatever the administrative deficiencies Chaum may have in getting
DigiCash actually deployed (another subject, mentioned frequently in
message by various of us), it is clear that he (Chaum) thought long
and hard about "Big Brother" issues and that his method of anonymous,
untraceable digital cash is much to be preferred over the many other
proposals for digital payments, metered usage, etc.

To tell the truth, I'm losing faith that people will take the time to
educate themselves to the point where they can be taken seriously.
Too many of the "proposals" here show obvious signs that people aren't
"getting" the core ideas. I urge that people take a Saturday and spend
it at a fairly large university technical library, hanging out in the
crypto section and Xeroxing some articles. Otherwise, too much idle
speculation.

And yes, I'm trying to finish a FAQ. It's over 500K and will have to
split into multiple pieces, for ftp access from my site. The remaining
problem is that many points are in outline form, which is my preferred
writing tool for things that require thinking about reasons,
arguments, rebuttals, tangential points, etc.

I don't think the lack of a FAQ has much to do with the stuff I'm
complaining about here, as no FAQ can substitute for the deep exposure
I'm talking about here. And maybe most people will skip my FAQ, just
as they skip FAQs in most groups. 

On a positive note: Hal Finney's introduction to the work of Brands
was excellent. I urge anyone interested in "digital money," beyond the
level of writing rants about how "we" need to "do something," to read
Hal's article, dig up the stuff Brands sent out about a year or so
ago, and find his articles.

--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."