// COMPLETE THREAD

3DES

4 expanded posts ยท every known parent and child

NODE 806e5b203DES
Quick question.  There's a brief mention in Applied Cryptography that
triple DES uses:

	Eabc(x) = Ea(Db(Ec(x)))

as opposed to:

	Eabc(x) = Ea(Eb(Ec(x)))

in order to preserve some symmetry properties.  Can anyone give a
better explanation?
NODE 2380e829Re: 3DES
>Quick question.  There's a brief mention in Applied Cryptography that
>triple DES uses:

	Eabc(x) = Ea(Db(Ec(x)))

>as opposed to:

>	Eabc(x) = Ea(Eb(Ec(x)))

>in order to preserve some symmetry properties.  Can anyone give a
>better explanation?

This should probably be in a FAQ somewhere. As I understand it, the
intent is to build 3DES chips that can be backward compatible with
single DES by simply setting all three keys to the same
value. Naturally, nobody would be stupid enough to do single DES in
this way in a software implementation, but it doesn't really cost
anything extra when operating in 3DES mode either. DES decryption is
the same as encryption with a reversed key schedule, so the work
factor for both ciphering and attacking should be the same.

Question to the group: are there any precise standards for how 3DES
keys are specified?  Also, a 3DES verification suite similar to NIST's
suite for single DES would be very nice.

Phil
NODE 0de4ba2fRe: 3DES
> pstemari@bismark.cbis.com (Paul J. Ste. Marie) writes:
> triple DES uses:

> Eabc(x) = Ea(Db(Ec(x)))

> as opposed to:

> Eabc(x) = Ea(Eb(Ec(x)))

> in order to preserve some symmetry properties.  Can anyone give a
> better explanation?

OK -- if you want to retain compatibility with old 56-bit DES chips
in your same network, you can set a = b = c and get:

  Eaaa(x) = Ea(Da(Ea(x)))

using the first form, which reduces to Ea(x), or a single 56-bit DES
encryption instead of the 168 bits your TripleDES chip can handle.  The
second form doesn't have this property or any other useful property other
than standalone security, since DES isn't a group.

	Jim Gillogly
	Highday, 7 Winterfilth S.R. 1994, 22:03
NODE 6798ef2bRe: 3DES
> From: pstemari@bismark.cbis.com (Paul J. Ste. Marie)
> 
> Quick question.  There's a brief mention in Applied Cryptography that
> triple DES uses:
> 
> 	Eabc(x) = Ea(Db(Ec(x)))
> 
> as opposed to:
> 
> 	Eabc(x) = Ea(Eb(Ec(x)))
> 
> in order to preserve some symmetry properties.  Can anyone give a
> better explanation?

If a=b=c, a=b, or b=c  then the first operation is Ea(Da(Ea(x))) which is
just Ea(x).  This method allows one to support 56bit (single DES) and
168bit (triple DES) keys on the same function, basically making the system
backward compatible with those just using DES.

jim