Re: Bad govt represents bad people?

perry@imsi.com wrote:
>They've never failed -- thats the thing. France has had five or six or
>seven governments since its revolution depending on how you count
>them. Italy's government was barely a few years old following the last
>war when it became nothing more than a graft generator. Of all the
>nations of Europe, only England in some sense can be said to have
>survived more than the last sixty or seventy years without a major
>change of government -- and it might be said that England's government
>changed radically following the reforms of the last century and the
>Parliament Act of 1911. (Well, some of the Scandanavian countries are
>also partial exceptions, but not especially big ones.) Europe is
>considered the "advanced" part of the workd, ladies and gentlemen.
>The U.S.'s record of surviving over 200 years without a major upheaval
>is quite an unusual thing.

I agree with you that the U.S. is unusual in this way - but I would say
that part of the reason the US has been so successful in warding off 'bad
government' is because Americans have traditionally been very concious and
protective of their liberties, more so than the French and Italians, and
even more so than the Brits.  I would suggest that this supports my
'eternal vigilance' statement, because it is only the country that has been
most protective and concious of its rights that still has it's rights. 
(Having a written Constitution has helped a bit, too...)  

>But the people almost never resist. Usually, they want the bad
>government -- it needs them to survive.

Well, that's an awfully pessimistic attitude, but I think you would
certainly agree that some countries in the world have worse government than
others.  I would say that the government reflects the people - the
countries with the best government tend to be those with the citizenry
which is most aware of the dangers of big government.  Even if those
countries eventually succumb to bad government, they will have succumbed
because they cease to resist the big G.  
My point is this - G(g)overnment reflects the people in that it is the
people who ultimately must insure that their rights are protected.  If they
don't, history has shown, 'bad Government' will take over.  American
liberties have survived in some form for so long because Americans have
made efforts to maintain them - not because the forces which try to
restrict/remove our liberties are not their.  By the same coin, since these
forces are always there, when the US gives into them it will be because our
citizenry is no longer vigilant in resisting these forces.

rk
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Rachel_P._Kovner@gorgias.ilt.columbia.edu writes:

> perry@imsi.com wrote:

> >But the people almost never resist. Usually, they want the bad
> >government -- it needs them to survive.

> Well, that's an awfully pessimistic attitude,...

Well, look around you.  Examples abound.  One of the origins of this
thread was Phil Karn's observation that it's the ham radio operators
themselves who demand curtailment of other hams' freedoms.  One of the
biggest threats to freedom right now is the government takeover of
health care.  Is this being pushed by a ruling elite on a recalcitrant
population?  No!  Most of the driving force is coming from the people
themselves, each trying to get his neighbor to pay the bill.  The list
goes on and on.

Ending bad government begins with refusing to accept its ``benefits''.
Unfortunately, lots of people gratuitously accept those benefits or even
actively solicit them, oblivious of the resulting destruction of freedom.

	John E. Kreznar		| Relations among people to be by
	jkreznar@ininx.com	| mutual consent, or not at all.

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