Anonymous methods, WRT first shots at CMU

As a fairly recent alumnus of CMU, I've been paying particular attention to
the CMU sex ban -- especially since several of my friends (and old room-
mates) are the ones who were ordered to implement the ban.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the Time (inc) article
is available at:

http://www.timeinc.com/time/magazine/domestic/1994/941121/941121.culture.html

This is the direction from which I expect anonymous methods of contact
to first gain wide use and, to a much lesser extent, acceptance.

Consider the economic force of sex: we can only benefit from sex being
driven underground.  Peoples' desire for sexually stimulating video
drove the VCR market into existence -- it will also drive the creation
of privacy methods.

Since governments are short on understanding of C-space, we can expect them
to attempt to regulate based purely upon their own rhetoric, ignoring the
realities of C-space.  That will leave us with computer professionals
who will be forced to implement rules they deeply disagree with -- probably
many cypherpunks will be among them.

Therefore, the Tiger-team beta testers of privacy methods are likely to
administrators at schools like CMU who aren't likely to be sympathetic
the goals of their marching orders.

This particular fracture line in our society, between the technologically
elite and the "moralist" power elite, is a god-send.  Thank your nearest
evangelical: better that this issue, considered much more frivolous than,
say, tax evasion, be used to test privacy means.

What does this mean in the short term?  Remailer operators should be aware
that this will be the vector of the soonest attack upon their independence.
--
Todd Masco     | According to the US dept of Justice Stats, 3.98% of the US
cactus@hks.net | population is in prison, the highest count in the world. We
cactus@bb.com  | live in a police state and are lulled by notions of normalcy.

On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, L. Todd Masco wrote:

> 
> 
> This is the direction from which I expect anonymous methods of contact
> to first gain wide use and, to a much lesser extent, acceptance.

No kidding! As soon as you make sex more "verboten" then people immediately
search for ways to circumvent the ban.

> 
> What does this mean in the short term?  Remailer operators should be aware
> that this will be the vector of the soonest attack upon their independence.

Well, I think it will be the trigger hopefully generates more remailer's
in Europe. So far we only (since the evident demise of wein) have usura's 
excellent
remailers in the Netherlands. It would be nice if more were placed overseas,
beyond the reach of U.S. pressure.

At least being able to add another couple in a chain (before your message
hits the U.S. remailers like underdog, jpunix, portal, et al) should
lessen the danger of ultimate compromise of your identity even further. I
suspect the Euro-remailer operators would likely just be able to thumb
their nose at whatever cries of outrage eminate from this side of the pond.

That would be a switch...Europe "liberating" North America! :>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Terka     | werewolf@io.org             | public key (werewolf) by
Toronto,Canada | dg507@cleveland.freenet.edu | public key server or request
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark Terka, of Toronto, wrote:

> Well, I think it will be the trigger hopefully generates more remailer's
> in Europe. So far we only (since the evident demise of wein) have usura's 
> excellent
> remailers in the Netherlands. It would be nice if more were placed overseas,
> beyond the reach of U.S. pressure.

More on why non-U.S. remailers are so important.

Last Saturday night, after the Cypherpunks meeting and dinner, I was
giving Colin Plumb (a Toronto person) a ride to the hotel he was
staying at in Los Gatos. We stopped at a mega bookstore (Barnes and
Noble, Santa Clara) and ran immediately into yet another Toronto
person (ex, actually), Brad Templeton, well-known as the operator of
ClariNet. (I've met Brad many times, but he still doesn't remember my
name or what I do, which says something interesting about one of us.)

Brad heard the word "Cypherpunks" and gave his views on things. I'll
summarize in bullet form, as I lack the time to formulate his points
in full paragraphs.

* Brad was initially unaware that "fully anonymous" remailers exist
("fully" in the sense of no records of who is who, not in the sense of
perfect security against NSA type of opponents). He thought
Cypherpunks remailers were some variant of Julf's type.

* When he grasped the basic idea, of chained mixes, he got quite upset
and said they were "threats" to his business. (Anonymous forwarding of
ClariNet articles happens, of course. Brad was expecting that he could
get a court order, if it came down to that, and was shocked to hear
that the Cypherpunks model does not make this possible.)

* I shrugged, and said that, longterm, copyright was dead as we know
it today. I pointed out that dozens of Cypherpunks-style remailers are
operational, including many in Europe and elsewhere.

* Brad: "Then they'll be outlawed." 

* As we debated this in the aisles of the bookstore (a true Silicon
Valley scene!), he formulated the view that a person like him probably
needs to file lawsuits to get them declared illegal on the basis of
being "attractive nuisances." As he put it, "like unfenced swimming
pools in back yards."

* "And what about the non-U.S. sites?," I asked. He had no good
answer, except that maybe laws restricting access to non-U.S. sites
would have to be considered. (I didn't get into the obvious issues
about the impossibility of doing this, of stego, etc.)

* Brad also expressed the view that the recently passed Digital
Telephony Act would "force" remailer operators to make their traffic
available to the proper authorities. (I disagree, from my reading of
the DT Act, but didn't debate it with Brad. And of course it's real
hard to get those sites in Russia, Holland, and other countries to
obey U.S. rules. Not impossible, hence our need for vigilance and for
proliferating sites as rapidly as possible.)

I debated not writing an "incident report" to you folks, being as how
Brad is not on this list and is basically uninformed on the details of
our remailers, but I feel that a "heads up" is warranted.

Brad and ClariNet have already caused one remailer to go down (the
operator of it has commented here before and of course can do so again
if he sees this), and his comments Saturday night cause me to think he
may be considering a test case of some sort. (He is fearful of losing
his Associate Press/etc. franchise if he fails to enforce his rights.)

So, I draw several conclusions from this, and from the comments in
this thread:

1. Get as many _remailer accounts_ offshore as quickly as possible.

2. Separate the "ownership of a machine" from "remailer accounts."
There is no good reason for the owner of a machine that does remailing
to actually be doing the remailing. And many good reasons why a
particular machine should have _many_ separate "mail accounts" that
actually are the remailes. (This is the "remailer-in-a-box" I've been
pushing.) 

(For one thing, the ECPA protects the mail, and allows the machine
owner to adopt a "hands off" stance. For another, an "abused account"
can simply and quickly be killed, with new ones taking its place!
Think of the benefits.)

3. I think the "intellectual property" industry (Brad and Friends)
will be looking at remailers and anonymous systems more carefully.
Legislation _could_ come out of this. I don't expect anything soon, as
Brad is just now realizing the implications....

4. However, I think it's impossible to stop all these things, for
reasons well known to all of us. Brad's "attractive nuisance" idea
won't fly, not if it means that e-mail must be written on "postcards,"
and not if it means Americans can't send e-mail outside the U.S.

(These are standard Cypherpunks issues. I didn't try to educate Brad
about the impossibility of banning encryption, about the alternatives
available, about steganography, etc. He seemed so wrapped up in
the idea of "doing something!" that arguing the CP agenda would have
been a waste. Plus, I was tired.)

So, not a cause for panic, as he will probably do nothing. But just as
Adm. Bobby Inman's comments give some insight into the position of the
intelligence community, Brad Templeton's comments give insights into
the coming battles over intellectual property.


--Tim May

-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
Cypherpunks list: majordomo@toad.com with body message of only: 
subscribe cypherpunks. FAQ available at ftp.netcom.com in pub/tcmay

Tim wrote:

| * When he grasped the basic idea, of chained mixes, he got quite upset
| and said they were "threats" to his business. (Anonymous forwarding of
| ClariNet articles happens, of course. Brad was expecting that he could
| get a court order, if it came down to that, and was shocked to hear
| that the Cypherpunks model does not make this possible.)
| 
| * I shrugged, and said that, longterm, copyright was dead as we know
| it today. I pointed out that dozens of Cypherpunks-style remailers are
| operational, including many in Europe and elsewhere.
| 
| * Brad: "Then they'll be outlawed." 

	Brad is in the 'intelectual property' buisness.  He makes his
money selling access to information.  There is an entire parasitic
class that does nothing useful, but makes money from the idea of
copyright.  (Most entertainment industries operate like this.  The
industry puts up seed money in exchange for the profits that an artist
generates.)  Books, music, film to a lesser extent are all in the path
of a digital revolution which eliminates the need for a middleman.  If
I can download music to DAT, I don't need Sony records.  Neither does
Peter Gabriel, Robert Fripp or any other musician.

	When you point out to these people that their jobs are going
to be eliminated, you force them to become luddites, in the original
sense of the word.  Their jobs are being destroyed by technology, and
they don't like it.  We need to make sure that we paint them as
luddites at every step of the way.  Any other conception of the
middlemen who profit from other people's work is bound to result in
stupid laws.


Adam

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
						       -Hume

In article <199411220020.QAA08980@netcom6.netcom.com>,
Timothy C. May <tcmay@netcom.com> wrote:
>* I shrugged, and said that, longterm, copyright was dead as we know
>it today. I pointed out that dozens of Cypherpunks-style remailers are
>operational, including many in Europe and elsewhere.
>
>* Brad: "Then they'll be outlawed." 
>
>* "And what about the non-U.S. sites?," I asked. He had no good
>answer...

This is why GATT bothers me.  Once we have have an alignment of property
laws, particularly IP laws, there's no telling how things will fall.

It's a bad set of failure modes.

>* Brad also expressed the view that the recently passed Digital
>Telephony Act would "force" remailer operators to make their traffic
>available to the proper authorities.

Brad's very wrong.  The Senate hearings were very explicit on this
point: Internet providers (as well as people like AOL and Compuserv)
are exempt from DT requirements.
-- 
Todd Masco     | According to the US dept of Justice Stats, 3.98% of the US
cactus@hks.net | population is in prison, the highest count in the world. We
cactus@bb.com  | live in a police state and are lulled by notions of normalcy.

On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Timothy C. May wrote:

> Mark Terka, of Toronto, wrote:
> 
> > Well, I think it will be the trigger hopefully generates more remailer's
> > in Europe. So far we only (since the evident demise of wein) have usura's 
> > excellent
> > remailers in the Netherlands. It would be nice if more were placed overseas,
> > beyond the reach of U.S. pressure.
> 
> More on why non-U.S. remailers are so important.
> 
> Last Saturday night, after the Cypherpunks meeting and dinner, I was
> giving Colin Plumb (a Toronto person) a ride to the hotel he was
> staying at in Los Gatos. We stopped at a mega bookstore (Barnes and
> Noble, Santa Clara) and ran immediately into yet another Toronto
> person (ex, actually), Brad Templeton, well-known as the operator of
> ClariNet. (I've met Brad many times, but he still doesn't remember my
> name or what I do, which says something interesting about one of us.)
> 
> Brad heard the word "Cypherpunks" and gave his views on things. I'll
> summarize in bullet form, as I lack the time to formulate his points
> in full paragraphs
 
[...]

> I debated not writing an "incident report" to you folks, being as how
> Brad is not on this list and is basically uninformed on the details of
> our remailers, but I feel that a "heads up" is warranted.

Perhaps a measure of the scope of our job.  Even the computer jock is 
ignorant when it comes to cypher-education.

> 
> (For one thing, the ECPA protects the mail, and allows the machine
> owner to adopt a "hands off" stance. For another, an "abused account"
> can simply and quickly be killed, with new ones taking its place!
> Think of the benefits.)
> 

I'm not sure the ECPA provides the protection you want here.  I'll have 
to look again, and do not assert this as certain, because I'm only 
pulling of the top of my head what I remember from a quick scan of the 
Steve Jackson Games opinion.

Anyone want to repost it?  I recall it limited the ECPA in some 
interesting way, and I remember being offened, and not surprised at the 
narrow reading.

> So, not a cause for panic, as he will probably do nothing. But just as
> Adm. Bobby Inman's comments give some insight into the position of the
> intelligence community, Brad Templeton's comments give insights into
> the coming battles over intellectual property.

Thanks for the contact report!

> 
> 
> --Tim May
> 
> -- 
> ..........................................................................
> Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  

[...]

> 

073BB885A786F666 nemo repente fuit turpissimus - potestas scientiae in usu est
6E6D4506F6EDBC17 quaere verum ad infinitum, loquitur sub rosa    -    wichtig!

Tim May wrote> 
> * I shrugged, and said that, longterm, copyright was dead as we know
> it today. I pointed out that dozens of Cypherpunks-style remailers are

Still waving red flags at bulls, eh Tim?

I vaguely remember something like this controversy occurring when
the Xerox machine was new. Can anyone refresh my memory?

JJH
--
"It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
 It is by the beans of Java that the thoughts acquire speed,
 the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
 It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion."

jamesh@netcom.com writes:
[re: copyright stuff and remailers...]
> I vaguely remember something like this controversy occurring when
> the Xerox machine was new. Can anyone refresh my memory?

It is the same thing that happened with VCR machines (which actually went
to court, Universal Pictures v. Sony) and recently with DAT systems.  It is
probably worth noting that reality _lost_ that last battle on this issue...

jim

Timothy C. May writes:
 > So, not a cause for panic, as he will probably do nothing.

I agree that panic is uncalled for, but I don't agree that he will
probably do nothing.  Eventually, Mr. Templeton or someone in a
similar position is certain to "do something"; this is an inevitable
result of the clash between traditional (since the 16th century,
anyway) views of copyright and what "we" think of the
meaning(lessness) of copyright in an online digital world.

Put yourself in his place.  Mr. Templeton's attitude makes perfect
sense.  The entire fabric of his business is based upon
state-supported protection of the "property" that's his stock in
trade.  I would think very little of him as a businessperson were he
to simple roll over and give up.

Indeed, it might actually be advantageous for the "something" to
happen sooner rather than later; clumsy attacks on freedom of
electronic communication could backfire, resulting in favorable (to
e-freedom) judgements that would stand as precedent later on.

| GOOD TIME FOR MOVIE - GOING ||| Mike McNally <m5@tivoli.com>       |
| TAKE TWA TO CAIRO.          ||| Tivoli Systems, Austin, TX:        |
|     (actual fortune cookie) ||| "Like A Little Bit of Semi-Heaven" |