Re: The Thread That Wouldn't Die (Was: Re: McCoy is Right!)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Please don't cc: me on messages to the list. Thanks.]

Jim McCoy writes:
> Actually this "dump flamewar" has produced some good discussion regarding
> actual implementation issues. 

I beg to differ. If you think that was a good discussion, I'd hate to see what
you'd classify as a bad discussion. Crypto relevance was minimal, too.

> Everything that has happened with MIME will happen again when people try to 
> add cryptography to the structure of the net.  

It seems to me that people are *already* trying to add cryptography to the
structure of the net, and that would actually be worth discussing.

> Maybe there are some lessons to be learned here.

_Maybe_, but I don't think anyone's learning them.

- - -L. Futplex McCarthy

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.1

iQCVAwUBLvFDrGf7YYibNzjpAQFjXgP/QrsprjIVwZvAmkx8GAySAiEn7/VLtbuL
HfvPXaEBvq1iDr5Jax7p95ctWA6Qjo4H13LkUJIHkoMK+Hh5ofO6bG1g2ZBKWz8b
oX/S90pPhDDDc4yt6DPQXeaz57yA3IYYhUQzWrh9dH/LtAC5agsyqcJTGTWWrQ1/
pO7d7VQhFnQ=
=uE/d
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- ---
[This message has been signed by an auto-signing service.  A valid signature
means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the
signature and forwarded.]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Gratis auto-signing service

iQBFAwUBLvFE0yoZzwIn1bdtAQFQKwF/ROSbeuwJYgPTq8WJz3FQLVR9PEA99bBF
xxz4ISjLTvZKPPX8OQo2vE6cYgt3mChU
=Ahuo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

L. McCarthy writes:
> Jim McCoy writes:
> > Actually this "dumb flamewar" has produced some good discussion regarding
> > actual implementation issues. 
> 
> I beg to differ. If you think that was a good discussion, I'd hate to see
> what you'd classify as a bad discussion. Crypto relevance was minimal, too.

A bad discussion contains very little signal.  The crypto relevance to the
MIME discussion was quite apparent to me, it is a shame you missed it.  For
starters the difficulty of advancing technology conducive to CP goals when
it runs counter to the inertia of "what I have now works for what I want to
do today, so why bother doing something that might just be better in the
long run..."  Every argument that was used against MIME will one day be
used to discourage the widespread use of cryptography.  Additionally, MIME
is a necessary standard for encapsulating cryptographic messages in a
package that can get through some of the stranger transport mechanisms used
on the net, it doesn't make much sense to argue over what color to paint
the Ferrari when all you have is dirt roads to drive it on...
> > Everything that has happened with MIME will happen again when people
> > try to add cryptography to the structure of the net.
>
> It seems to me that people are *already* trying to add cryptography to the
> structure of the net, and that would actually be worth discussing.
Yeah, like the PGP-MIME draft, which will open up the ability to
effectively use PGP to more people than anything the cypherpunks have ever
done :) Standards are important and instead of trying to tilt at
windmills to no purpose perhaps it is worthwhile to examine how existing
standards can be effectively marshaled towards cypherpunk goals.
jim