FBI and BLACKNET

I was just visited by the a humble servant of the FBI
inquireing what I knew of BLACKNET. They apparently believe it's
a possible network industrial sabbatoge (read Terrorism).

Although the person I spoke to was quite cordial and even bought me 
lunch (that's the way to win me over) I must really question
the intellegence (read IQ) and intellagence (read reconnasance)
of his superiors.

apparently whoever sent him his lead doesn't pay attention to the net
enough to know Blacknet was a hoax, and why did it take since august
for them to find me?


I explained to him the differece between a Cyperpunk and a hacker
explained what a joke it is to be prosicuting Mr. Zimmerman
and why the Government is in the wrong for trying to limit encrytion
strenght. Then I demonstrated the Internet and how to e-mail the prez
and FTP speaches of the Prez :)

(I know I know, act stupid so they volentere as much info as possible,
he let too many things slip, but still If I had his job I'd be following 
up things like this too)

--Syed Yusuf
(Cypherpunk and proud of it damnit!)

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In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.950110164606.5992B-100000@goshawk.csrv.uidaho.edu>, you wrote:

I hope they took you someplace nice for lunch...You might want to file a
FOI request on yourself, just to see how much they censor. ;) They might
think you're the ringleader, after all the FBI doesn't buy peons lunch. ;)

Sam

- --
==============================================================================
skaplin@skypoint.com                   | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for
                                       | a listing of crypto related files
PGP encrypted mail is accepted and     | available on my auto-responder.
preferred.                             | (Yes...the faqs are there!)
                                       |
E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or   | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard
Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com     | outside a Roman brothel.
==============================================================================
            A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small package.

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On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Samuel Kaplin wrote:

> I hope they took you someplace nice for lunch...You might want to file a
> FOI request on yourself, just to see how much they censor. ;) They might
> think you're the ringleader, after all the FBI doesn't buy peons lunch. ;)
> 

For the benifit of myself and the list, how would you go about doing that?


> Sam
> skaplin@skypoint.com                   | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for
> E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or   | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard
> Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com     | outside a Roman brothel.
>             A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small package.

--Syed

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On Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:09:33 -0800 (PST), Syed Yusuf <yusuf921@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Samuel Kaplin wrote:
>
> > I hope they took you someplace nice for lunch...You might want to file a
> > FOI request on yourself, just to see how much they censor. ;) They might
> > think you're the ringleader, after all the FBI doesn't buy peons lunch. ;)
> >
>
> For the benifit of myself and the list, how would you go about doing that?

Fill out this form letter, get it notarized and send it to the address in
the letterhead. Be prepared to wait and get jerked around. I have heard
that some FOI requests have taken as long as two years to get back.

Sam


                   PRIVACY ACT & FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST

(date)


                        (requester's name and address)



        Federal Bureau of Investigation
        Records Management Division -
        FOIA/PA Office
        9th & Pennsylvania Avenue NW
        Washington, DC 20535

Gentlemen:

This is a request for records under the provisions of both the Privacy
Act (5 USC 552b) and the Freedom of Information Act (5 USC 522). This
request is being made under both Acts.

I hereby request one copy of any and all records about me or
referencing me maintained at the FBI. This includes (but should not be
limited to) documents, reports, memoranda, letters, electronic files,
database references, "do not file" files, photographs, audio tapes,
videotapes, electronic or photographic surveillance, "june mail", mail
covers, and other miscellaneous files, and index citations relating to
me or referencing me in other files.

My full name is:___________________________________
My date of birth was______________
My place of birth was:______________________________
My social security #:______________
I have lived in these places:



Other names, places, events, organizations or other references under
which you may find applicable records:



As you know, FOIA/PA regulations provide that even if some requested
material is properly exempt from mandatory disclosure, all segregable
portions must be released. If the requested material is released with
deletions, I ask that each deletion be marked to indicate the
exemption(s) being claimed to authorize each particular withholding.
In addition, I ask that your agency exercise its discretion to release
any records which may be technically exempt, but where withholding
serves no important public interest.

I hereby agree to pay reasonable costs associated with this request up
to a maximum of $25 without my additional approval. However, I
strongly request a fee waiver because this is, in part, a Privacy Act
request.

This letter and my signature have been certified by a notary public as
marked below.

Sincerely,




  _____________________________________________
          requester's signature




  _____________________________________________
          requester's printed name




  _____________________________________________
          notary stamp and signature



- --
==============================================================================
skaplin@skypoint.com                   | Finger skaplin@infinity.c2.org for
                                       | a listing of crypto related files
PGP encrypted mail is accepted and     | available on my auto-responder.
preferred.                             | (Yes...the faqs are there!)
                                       |
E-mail key@four11.com for PGP Key or   | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard
Finger skaplin@mirage.skypoint.com     | outside a Roman brothel.
==============================================================================
       Ambition is a poor excuse for not having sense enough to be lazy.
                            -- Charlie McCarthy --

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If anyone is interested, I have a complete "FOIA Kit," issued by the
Fund for Open Information and Accountability, Inc.  It includes
instructions, advice, and an assortment of sample letters.

E-mail me if you would like a copy.


--
Mark Chen 
chen@intuit.com
415/329-6913
finger for PGP public key
D4 99 54 2A 98 B1 48 0C  CF 95 A5 B0 6E E0 1E 1D

On Jan 12, 11:05pm, Samuel Kaplin wrote:
> Fill out this form letter, get it notarized and send it to the address in
> the letterhead. Be prepared to wait and get jerked around. I have heard
> that some FOI requests have taken as long as two years to get back.

Although the FBI only have juristiction within the US, it is quite possible
that they would have files containing information about non-US nationals
if they were involved (perhaps even peripherally) in domestic FBI
investigations.

I wonder what would happen if a non-US citizen logged an FOI request?
Has anyone ever tried?

						Ian.

> On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Samuel Kaplin wrote (about FBI interest in BlackNet)
> 
> > I hope they took you someplace nice for lunch...You might want to file a
> > FOI request on yourself, just to see how much they censor. ;) They might
> > think you're the ringleader, after all the FBI doesn't buy peons lunch. ;)
> 
> For the benifit of myself and the list, how would you go about doing that?

Also would be useful to know the equivalent procedures for Canada, UK, etc.

Filing such a request would probably get a file opened on you, too, but
so what?  The more these files fill up with innocent people the more
useless they get.  Perhaps everyone ought to sign up their granny to 
receive the Loompanics catalog or 2600, as a way to generate noise.

Regarding BlackNet, I am not sure that they are not *run* by the FBI,
or NSA, or CIA, MI6, Interpol, or some more mysterious quasi-governmental 
entity.  Such agencies must realize that traffic in secrets is possible,
inevitable, and would probably love to put themselves first in line to 
buy.  Think of the value:  embarrass rival agencies, identify leaks (if not
sources), raise funds for clandestine operations through resale or blackmail,
etc. Security agencies have often engaged in smuggling as a form of entrapment,
and/or fundraising;  Consider Iran-Contra as a recent high-level example.  The
mandate to trap offenders in a 'sting' also provides a handy alibi to excuse
such operations if they are ever exposed.  Citizens have no such protections.

Even a record of successful dealings with BlackNet would mean little.  If it
were run by, say, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Commission, then presumably
it would purchase non-nuclear secrets at high prices to build up credibility.
When a nuclear secret was offered for sale it would spare no expense to find 
the source.  In fact the 'highest bidder' for a secret would often be the
embarrassed/enraged agency responsible for preventing its leak.  At the very
least such agencies could be expected to deal secretly with the BlackNets...
why search out a secret yourself if you can buy it on the 'open' market?

Craig Hubley                Business that runs on knowledge
Craig Hubley & Associates   needs software that runs on the Web
craig@passport.ca   416-778-6136  416-778-1965 FAX

On Tue, 17 Jan 1995, Craig Hubley wrote:

> Regarding BlackNet, I am not sure that they are not *run* by the FBI,
> or NSA, or CIA, MI6, Interpol, or some more mysterious quasi-governmental 
> entity. 

The more I think about it the more this theory makes sense. I know 
how they _could_ have traced me but this doesn't explain all their other
"leads" they are following up on and he seemed to imply there were many.

>>> Not to mention entrapment is their MO. <<<

What do you say we put the word out?


> Craig Hubley                Business that runs on knowledge
> Craig Hubley & Associates   needs software that runs on the Web
> craig@passport.ca   416-778-6136  416-778-1965 FAX

--Syed

> On Tue, 17 Jan 1995, Craig Hubley (I) wrote:
> 
> > Regarding BlackNet, I am not sure that they are not *run* by the FBI,
> > or NSA, or CIA, MI6, Interpol, or some more mysterious quasi-governmental 
> > entity. 
> 
> The more I think about it the more this theory makes sense. I know 
> how they _could_ have traced me but this doesn't explain all their other
> "leads" they are following up on and he seemed to imply there were many.
> 
> >>> Not to mention entrapment is their MO. <<<
> 
> What do you say we put the word out?

Mixed feelings.  On the one hand, I am starting to believe in this theory
more and more.  On the other hand, I think that having a BlackNet run by
security agencies is actually a stabilizing thing to some degree:  those
who are foolish enough to deal with unknown parties with unknown interests
in arbitrary secrets with petty motives will generally become neutralized.
For instance, those who sell 2000 credit card numbers or 500 broken Digital
Cash Card readouts (is this possible) can be paid or prosecuted at leisure.

In either case, such folks will find more and more security holes plugged
as they clearly identify where they are for the security agencies... this
would prevent a general crackdown on cryptography etc., effectively the
security agencies would have learned to work 'within the new realities'.

I suspect targets might be less likely to be chosen by police discretion,
and more likely to be chosen for their threat value, if they required less
(discretionary) effort to investigate in the first place.  Note that some
laws, like small scale marijuana growing, often go unenforced unless there
is a specific complaint or hard evidence is directly presented to police.
In the 'BlackNet sting', such a flow of evidence would be constantly on its
way in to the police, probably forcing them into more of a reactive mode,
and definitely focusing their attention on those actively peddling secrets
as opposed to those just trying to keep them.  Not too bad for privacy.

Furthermore, the flow of truly scary secrets flowing their way might make
them ration their effort to plug leaks of high priority:  nuclear weapon
design, biological warfare blueprints, formulae for putting necrotizing
fascitis into the common cold protein coat, 'gray goo' nanotechnology...
and other things that constitute serious threats to life on this planet.
This might probably divert effort away from prosecuting 'victimless crime',
enhancing civil liberties. For once such agencies might be 'doing their job'.
If indeed they have any legitimate job, which is always up for debate.

Of course they will also engage in petty prosecution of those who they
perceive are acting against their narrow interests, but all organisms
act to preserve and advance themselves... this comes and goes with their
leaders (J. Edgar Hoover, William Casey come to mind as good/bad examples)
who hopefully turn over with the tide of politics, minimizing the abuses
in the long run.  Of course this is little consolation to those they target.
Systematic abuses might be more easily revealed by 'whistleblowers' if there
were a clear record kept 'inside' of which leads were followed and which not.

Blow the whistle?  Sure, we could.  But what difference does it make?  If
no one trusts BlackNets, then the security agencies just take a different
route to building up credibility for a 'sting', using more private means,
or many such more private means, and again we increase their discretionary
powers as they decide where to devote effort to building up a reputation
(hmm do we target Columbian druglords?  biohackers?  breakaway republics?
cryptographers?) and thereby where to concentrate enforcement.  Perhaps by
blowing a whistle on a 'BlackNet sting' we simply force them to evolve to
more devious methods, that require more planning, and costs more (thus maybe
reducing their overall activity - although history says otherwise) but in
the long run is even more directed by the interest/prejudice of leaders.  It
may be that the simpler and more reactive the methods they apply, the better.
It is largely premeditated human scheming that starts wars, isn't it?  Not
simple knee jerks.  Perhaps others believe otherwise, but not really an issue
for debate in cypherpunks.

Perhaps it is better to co-opt agencies by giving them a reason to adopt
the cryptographer's agenda.  It's got to be cheaper and easier for them
to sit and buy secrets than it is to go out and dig them up themselves...
and cryptography generally advances that capability as folks feel safe
using it to transmit secrets electronically.  

Of course the idea that black nets must be a sting is speculation, but
it would hardly be the first time that security agencies and those that
they officially target had developed a symbiotic relationship.  Here in
Canada it was recently revealed that CSIS (the 'Canadian CIA') had been
actively involved in the founding of the Heritage Front, a neo-Nazi group.
In fact one of their leaders was an agent!  Interestingly, this appears 
to be a more effective/cheaper way to control a large group of otherwise
dangerous people - if they want to follow a leader, let them!  Just make
sure the leader is someone you control and you can prevent things from
getting too far out of hand.  Which is the only time that CSIS or the CIA
should be stepping in anyway.  It is sort of a pre-emptive strike and not
at all 'politically correct' in a liberal democracy, but they do it anyway.

That's life.  And maybe it's easier to keep an eye on simple forms of life.

Craig Hubley                Business that runs on knowledge
Craig Hubley & Associates   needs software that runs on the Web
craig@passport.ca   416-778-6136  416-778-1965 FAX