Re: Anonymous payment scheme

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There are a couple of issues here.  One is whether you could get a
debit card with another name printed on it than your own.  Sandy
Sandfort and some others have suggested here that this would be legal
and possible already as long as you don't do it with the intention to
commit fraud.  You can open a secured account by mail and give a false
name.

I'm not sure what you do in this situation if they ask to see some ID
when you try to use the card.  This would be rather embarrassing, it
seems to me.  Sorry, I guess I left my drivers license in my other
pants... Or, never mind, try this card.  That other one was from before I
changed my name...

The other issue is whether you could set up a payment system which did
not require social security numbers from the participants.  I think
this is much more questionable.  Although the phone cards and some
other restricted usage systems are apparently legal, bank accounts seem
to have many more restrictions.  Barter and scrip systems are also
heavily regulated.  All these laws involving reporting requirements,
etc., were passed to help the government track the flow of money.
There is no way the government is going to make an exception at this
point.  In fact, I suspect that if the limited systems expanded to
where they were used for general payments, the government would crack
down.  I recall reading that just such a crackdown occured in Las Vegas
when casino chips started to be accepted for non-gambling payments.

So, you may be able to have a form of anonymity from the person you are
transacting with, but I don't think you can be anonymous from the bank
and from the government.  And personally, I am more concerned about the
bank and gov't tracking my spending patterns than whether the guy I buy
gas from knowing my name.  The bank has a lot more information about me
which is much more threatening to my privacy.  A nom de guerre VISA or
debit card does not seem to help this problem.

Hal

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HH> So, you may be able to have a form of anonymity from the person you ar
HH> transacting with, but I don't think you can be anonymous from the bank
HH> and from the government.  And personally, I am more concerned about th

With a debit card you can't be anonymous, because your money resides in
the bank.  With digital cash, and the ability to transfer money to
another digital cash card via phone lines, I don't see how they can
successfully trace everything.  They will try, no doubt.

On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Bob MorrisG wrote:

> HH> So, you may be able to have a form of anonymity from the person you ar
> HH> transacting with, but I don't think you can be anonymous from the bank
> HH> and from the government.  And personally, I am more concerned about th
> 
> With a debit card you can't be anonymous, because your money resides in
> the bank.  With digital cash, and the ability to transfer money to
> another digital cash card via phone lines, I don't see how they can
> successfully trace everything.  They will try, no doubt.

  I don't see why a debit card couldn't be anonymous, even to the point 
of having no name, AND no picture on it. Yes, the bank has the money, but 
their only obligation is to dish it out to the vendors/ATMs that you have 
used your card with. Why should a bank care who you are once they have 
your money in the account.

  As to avoiding fraud with the card, is it really that huge of a 
problem? As long as noone copies the number(could go so far as no 
embossed number. Just a gloss black card with a hologram of a Bald Eagle 
on the front of it), and you don't lose the card how can someone use your 
account?

  I think that this anonymous debit card would be a good first step 
towards anonymous digital cash. You still couldn't exchange digital cash 
with your buddy in Taiwain, but it would work for converting to physical 
cash(Which I still like, and is the best anonymous cash around right now).

  Anyone here adept enough at finance to write a proposal for CitiCorp? :>
How would they make their mony off the cards? Annual fees, and vendor 
percentages I guess?

    Brian

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BL>  I don't see why a debit card couldn't be anonymous

BL> Why should a bank care who you are once they have
BL> your money in the account.

The bank might not care.  The IRS probably does and would insist on
knowing about transfers from bank accounts to anon debit cards.

BL> you don't lose the card how can someone use your account?

Just like with real cash.  Possession is ownership.  Digital cash
involves crypto and, I assume, some type of personal ID?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Hal wrote:

> . . .
> There are a couple of issues here.  One is whether you could get a
> debit card with another name printed on it than your own.  Sandy
> Sandfort and some others have suggested here that this would be legal
> and possible already as long as you don't do it with the intention to
> commit fraud.  You can open a secured account by mail and give a false
> name.
> 

Opening an account in the US without ID is very difficult
> I'm not sure what you do in this situation if they ask to see some ID
> when you try to use the card.  This would be rather embarrassing, it
> seems to me.  Sorry, I guess I left my drivers license in my other
> pants... Or, never mind, try this card.  That other one was from before I
> changed my name...
> 
> The other issue is whether you could set up a payment system which did
> not require social security numbers from the participants.  I think
> this is much more questionable.  Although the phone cards and some
> other restricted usage systems are apparently legal, bank accounts seem
> to have many more restrictions.  Barter and scrip systems are also
> heavily regulated.  All these laws involving reporting requirements,
> etc., were passed to help the government track the flow of money.
> There is no way the government is going to make an exception at this
> point.  In fact, I suspect that if the limited systems expanded to
> where they were used for general payments, the government would crack
> down.  I recall reading that just such a crackdown occured in Las Vegas
> when casino chips started to be accepted for non-gambling payments.
> 
> So, you may be able to have a form of anonymity from the person you are
> transacting with, but I don't think you can be anonymous from the bank
> and from the government.  And personally, I am more concerned about the
> bank and gov't tracking my spending patterns than whether the guy I buy
> gas from knowing my name.  The bank has a lot more information about me
> which is much more threatening to my privacy.  A nom de guerre VISA or
> debit card does not seem to help this problem.
> 
> Hal
> 
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