Remailer postage

Russ,

Where can I get the Magic Money software?  I'm also interested in a combination
FV/MM approach to anonymous postage.  I'm still waiting to get my linux box set
up (hassle with client paying the bill and all that fun stuff) but am
considering starting a remailer once I get the site set up.

I am concerned about the ethics of having a paymailer feed into the free
remailer soup - how would their operators react if I'm effectively making money 
(no matter how little) off of them?

In the interest of preserving anonymity, perhaps their should be a set postage
rate - that way someone could use a digital stamp anywhere, helping to confuse
the audit trail.

I'm not sure if I want to get involved in the hassles of redemption though.  It
would probably become a major hassle for all the operators to have to do that
much accounting on a regular basis.

jpb@gate.net
finger for pgp and ripem keys

From: jpb@gate.net
   Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:02:57 -0500 (EST)

   I am concerned about the ethics of having a paymailer feed into the free
   remailer soup - how would their operators react if I'm effectively making money 
   (no matter how little) off of them?

There is no ethical problem.  How do they know someone isn't making
money off them already?  If they haven't considered that, they should.

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/nelson.html
Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key
11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX)  | What is thee doing about it?
Potsdam, NY 13676 | What part of "Congress shall make no law" eludes Congress?

jpb@gate.net wrote:

> I am concerned about the ethics of having a paymailer feed into the free
> remailer soup - how would their operators react if I'm effectively making money 
> (no matter how little) off of them?

I can't speak for others, but making money off remailing is a GOOD
THING. 

If other remailers wish to give their services away for free, so be
it. There will likely be an ecology of remailers with different fee
schedules, different technical capabilities, and different policies.
Personally, I think that "free remailers" will always be with us, but
will come and go, as spammers and the like abuse them. The invisible
hand will of course choose some and reject others.

And a for-pay remailer is not making money "off them" (the other
remailers), as the paying customer is the one who is making the choice
of which remailers to use, which to pay digital postage on, etc.

[Comment: I see disdainful comments here about the profit motive,
about for-pay services, etc. I urge folks to carefully think about
this point. Services that are "free" are actualy paid for by someone,
in various ways and for various motivations. Some things are worth
paying for, some are not. Any customer who pays for remailing has made
an uncoerced, voluntary decision that his interests are better
serviced by paying for remailing than by using a free remailer. Sounds
fair to me.]

--Tim May


-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
Cypherpunks list: majordomo@toad.com with body message of only: 
subscribe cypherpunks. FAQ available at ftp.netcom.com in pub/tc/tcmay

I strongly agree with Tim that one should not look
down at for-profit anonymizing services. This is the
_only_ way I see to establish and maintain reliable
service and avoid spamming and denial of service.
It's also the only way such a service can scale if 
it becomes suddenly popular -- if there's no increased
revenue, it's going to be harder to get more h/w and
bandwidth.

Even if one had a heart of gold and purely charitable
instincts, one would eventually come to the conclusion
that such a service operates better if users are 
paying for it. And this is even before we address matters
like the benefits of competition.

Doug

Doug Barnes wrote:

> I strongly agree with Tim that one should not look
> down at for-profit anonymizing services. This is the
> _only_ way I see to establish and maintain reliable
> service and avoid spamming and denial of service.
> It's also the only way such a service can scale if 
> it becomes suddenly popular -- if there's no increased
> revenue, it's going to be harder to get more h/w and
> bandwidth.

Indeed, the problems Julf & Company are having in getting adequate CPU
power is illustrative. I see Julf saying he desperately needs some
more computer power (this was a few months back) and I see others
making the same tired old calls for "donations." (I say tired because
requests that some people make contributions to effectively pay for
the services used freely by others are rarely very effective....look
to the sorry state of public broadcasting "begathons" for one
example.)

Instead of pointless beggings of the form "If only everyone who used
Julf's service would send him $5," a pay-per-use system is much more
scalable, and "closes the loop" on who pays. To wit, those that use
the service, pay. Those that don't, don't.

(I understand that Russ Nelson has experience in the shareware
business, so he may know how many people send in their voluntary
contributions. My understanding is that it's a tiny fraction, and that
few shareware authors ever make much money. I've talked to some of
them, and they consider shareware a failed experiment, except for new
products trying to break into crowded markets, where the "shareware"
label is just a facade for essentially giving it away in exchange for
fame and eventual fortune if the product goes commercial.)

> Even if one had a heart of gold and purely charitable
> instincts, one would eventually come to the conclusion
> that such a service operates better if users are 
> paying for it. And this is even before we address matters
> like the benefits of competition.

Precisely. A for-pay remailer can also be pressured by customers to
enhance services, not take the remailer down for frivolous reasons,
etc. It's real hard to ask a "charityware" remailer to honor
comitments, add features, etc.

Simple economics, and free market anarchy. Nobody here is proposing
that fees be set (how could we?), that free remailers be banned
(how?), etc. Those that want to give away their products are free to
do so, just as those who want to charge $25 per remailing are free to
do so.

Free remailers will have a place, but will likely get "discovered" by
spammers and by those who see no costs in adding it to their remailer
chains. Hence, overuse. (More precise than "overuse": crowding, poor
service, flakiness, etc.) Just like anything else in economics.

The users ("the market") will largely determine how it all shakes out.
There are fortunately no government agencies in any of the countries I
know of that claim to be able to set fee schedules, ban "price
gouging," ban "underpricing," or regulate remailers in any practical
way.

service, flakiness, etc.) Just like anything else in economics. 

(Such moves may someday come, but that's another topic.)

--Tim



-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
Cypherpunks list: majordomo@toad.com with body message of only: 
subscribe cypherpunks. FAQ available at ftp.netcom.com in pub/tc/tcmay

From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
   Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:48:34 -0800 (PST)

   (I understand that Russ Nelson has experience in the shareware
   business, so he may know how many people send in their voluntary
   contributions. My understanding is that it's a tiny fraction, and that
   few shareware authors ever make much money. I've talked to some of
   them, and they consider shareware a failed experiment, except for new
   products trying to break into crowded markets, where the "shareware"
   label is just a facade for essentially giving it away in exchange for
   fame and eventual fortune if the product goes commercial.)

Shareware is essentially begging, yes.  Far better to just give the
software away to create a need for your services.  Then people are
actually getting something for their money.

Selling services is profitable, particularly if you can sell the same
service to multiple people at the same time.  If you're very good at
selling, you can even sell a service as an insurance plan.

-- 
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/nelson.html
Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key
11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX)  | What is thee doing about it?
Potsdam, NY 13676 | What part of "Congress shall make no law" eludes Congress?

jpb@gate.net wrote:
> Where can I get the Magic Money software?

I'm a bit behind, so sorry if others have already suggested this, but
you should need any digicash for this... stamps can be just big random
numbers.  Someone buys a books of stamps, you make 10 big random
numbers send them a copy and keep a copy on file.  After a message
comes through with a particular number you throw that number out.

Just like real stamps, and unlike money, they can be used only once.