Re: Zimmermann legal fund

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In article <199507302224.PAA10093@blob.best.net>, jamesd@echeque.com
("James A. Donald") wrote:

>Many years ago I obtained a US account by mail
>from overseas, using cheques made out to me from 
>US sources.
>
>I did this with the bank of America.  No big problem.  But as
>time went by, their ability to handle financial events that were
>out of the ordinary deteriorated spectacularly.
>
>Perhaps this is partly because things tightened up, but
>it is also that most US banks have developed a monolithic 
>and obstructionist bureaucracy that is incapable of handling 
>any event that is out of the ordinary.

Six years ago, you could walk into a Bank, show them your driver license,
and open an  account.
Today, you need several pieces of ID.
Three years ago, you could withdraw money from your own account without
having  your checkbook on you.
Today, they make you pay for a "counter check".
One year ago, you could walk into a bank an cash a check drawn onto an
account at the very same bank.
Today (Coast Federal), they make you pay a $10 check cashing fee.

The US banking industry has gone to the dogs. The day a non-US bank offers
an account that can be accessed over the net will be the day I close my US
accounts.

- -- 
- -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com>
   PGP encrypted mail preferred.
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On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Lucky Green wrote:

> Six years ago, you could walk into a Bank, show them your driver license,
> and open an  account.
> Today, you need several pieces of ID.
> Three years ago, you could withdraw money from your own account without
> having  your checkbook on you.
> Today, they make you pay for a "counter check".
> One year ago, you could walk into a bank an cash a check drawn onto an
> account at the very same bank.
> Today (Coast Federal), they make you pay a $10 check cashing fee.

When I lived in California, I banked at Security Pacific, then changed
over my account to BofA.  When I left the bay area, I closed my account,
not knowing that someone had sat on a check for $120 - I thought it was me
just entering an ATM receipt twice (as I do from time to time).  So,
someone from a place called ChexSystems sends me a letter, saying "well,
you had a check go through and the bank paid it, please pay us."  So, I
send them the $120 or whatever it was. 

When I tried to open a checking acount in Utah, I find that I can't, for
the sole reason that I had been "reported to ChexSystems".  I explained
the situation to no avail.  BofA refuses to remove the charge, saying that
it's "against their policy".  ChexSystems refuses to do anything about it,
saying that "it was a valid debt", one which I neither knew about nor
agreed to.  If the bank would've mailed me a letter, saying that they
bounced the check, or paid it and please remit, I would've been happy to. 
Instead, they chose to try and screw me over by reporting the so-called
"debt" to some sort of check reporting system.  From my point of view, the
action by the bank was malicious and done with the intent of causing me
harm.  I don't recommend anyone doing business with BofA for this reason,
and I strongly urge that people immediately close their accounts with BofA,
refuse to do business with them, and switch to another bank which refuses
to participate in such malicious practices. 

I'm *not* impressed.
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG    			Ed.Carp@linux.org, ecarp@netcom.com
801/534-8857 voicemail			801/460-1883 digital pager
Finger ecarp@netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key		an88744@anon.penet.fi

Q.	What's the trouble with writing an MS-DOS program to emulate Clinton?
A.	Figuring out what to do with the other 639K of memory.

> The US banking industry has gone to the dogs. The day a non-US bank offers
> an account that can be accessed over the net will be the day I close my US
> accounts.

Interesting idea ...

1st question or thing I would want to be certain of is the stability of the
currency of the realm so to speak. I wouldn't want to bank in a country that
had a weak currencey (sp) or was subject to roller coaster economics.  


-Mike

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*                         of my employer                                 *
*       Mike Bailey                     (hm)214-252-3915                 * 
*       email bailey@computek.net       (wk)214-456-4510                 *
*                                                                        *
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On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Mike Bailey wrote:

> > The US banking industry has gone to the dogs. The day a non-US bank offers
> > an account that can be accessed over the net will be the day I close my US
> > accounts.
> 
> Interesting idea ...
> 
> 1st question or thing I would want to be certain of is the stability of the
> currency of the realm so to speak. I wouldn't want to bank in a country that
> had a weak currencey (sp) or was subject to roller coaster economics.  

How could it be worse than with the U.S. of A.?? ;-)

Seriously: you may bank in US Dollars (or other major currencies) in many
countries, including all the offshore banking centres. Limited amounts of
cash may be withdrawn using ATM dispensers, against a fee of two or three
USD per operation; for larger amounts, you may ask them to wire money by
SWIFT, Telex or bank drafts to other banks or genric payees. For such
operations, most large banks accept instructions by snail mail, and
sometimes by fax (if the customer signs a letter of indemnity exempting
the bank from liabilities in case of forgeries). Sadly, AFAIK no bank is
accepting digitally encrypted and signed e-mail instructions, and issuing 
digitally encrypted and signed receipts.

On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Enzo Michelangeli wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Mike Bailey wrote:
> 
> > > The US banking industry has gone to the dogs. The day a non-US bank offers
> > > an account that can be accessed over the net will be the day I close my US
> > > accounts.
> > 
> > Interesting idea ...
> > 
> > 1st question or thing I would want to be certain of is the stability of the
> > currency of the realm so to speak. I wouldn't want to bank in a country that
> > had a weak currencey (sp) or was subject to roller coaster economics.  
> 
> How could it be worse than with the U.S. of A.?? ;-)
> 
> Seriously: you may bank in US Dollars (or other major currencies) in many
> countries, including all the offshore banking centres. Limited amounts of
> cash may be withdrawn using ATM dispensers, against a fee of two or three
> USD per operation; for larger amounts, you may ask them to wire money by
> SWIFT, Telex or bank drafts to other banks or genric payees. For such
> operations, most large banks accept instructions by snail mail, and
> sometimes by fax (if the customer signs a letter of indemnity exempting
> the bank from liabilities in case of forgeries). Sadly, AFAIK no bank is
> accepting digitally encrypted and signed e-mail instructions, and issuing 
> digitally encrypted and signed receipts.
> 
I'm feel that this type of banking is just around the corner with the coming
tidal wave of internet based commerce.

My primary concern would be something along this senario ... 

I open an account with U.S. $$ in a foreign bank who uses francs (don't
flame the denonimation or the choice this is just an exammple ;-) ... a month 
later the franc loses 20 % of it's value as compared to the U.S. dollar. If I 
close out my account would I not lose 20% of my money because when the money was 
deposited it was credited to the account in francs ... and when it is withdrawn 
it converted back to $$ at the current conversion rate ? Maybe this was answered 
in the previous reply if so call me *thick* if not call me *paranoid*.

-Mike

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*   Personal internet account, opinions and ideas do not reflect those   *
*                         of my employer                                 *
*       Mike Bailey                     (hm)214-252-3915                 * 
*       email bailey@computek.net       (wk)214-456-4510                 *
*                                                                        *
*   "Remember you can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish -Joe Walsh"   *
*               http://www.computek.net/public/bailey/                   *
**************************************************************************

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Mike Bailey wrote:

> I open an account with U.S. $$ in a foreign bank who uses francs ... a month 
> later the franc loses 20 % of it's value as compared to the U.S. dollar. If I 
> close out my account would I not lose 20% of my money because when the money was 
> deposited it was credited to the account in francs ... and when it is withdrawn 
> it converted back to $$ at the current conversion rate ?

If the account is denominated in francs, you take the hit.  If
it is denominated in dollars, you don't.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:12:16 +0800 (HKT)
   From: Enzo Michelangeli <enzo@ima.com>

   How could it be worse than with the U.S. of A.?? ;-)

OK... think about Venezuela. It has bad inflation. It has laws against
converting local currency to US dollars on the black market, which is
basically defined as any agency/person/corporate entity exchanging at
a worse rate than the government rate (at least in Venezuela itself;
you can pay your foreign creditors in Bolivars and exchange them on
the open market for twice the official exchange rate); all
government-rate currency transactions must go through a special
currency review board that checks to see if you _really_ need to
exchange currency. It is illegal to bribe this board and impossible to
get a request acknowledged inside a year without bribery (if it isn't
denied because you didn't bribe the members of the board).

Of course, one day the U.S. may be this bad.

Phil

On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Phil Fraering wrote:

>    Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:12:16 +0800 (HKT)
>    From: Enzo Michelangeli <enzo@ima.com>
> 
>    How could it be worse than with the U.S. of A.?? ;-)
> 
> OK... think about Venezuela. It has bad inflation. It has laws against
> converting local currency to US dollars on the black market, which is
> basically defined as any agency/person/corporate entity exchanging at
> a worse rate than the government rate (at least in Venezuela itself;
[...]

Hey, I was joking: even without arriving to such extremes, banking in
Europe is, more often than not, a much worse experience than in USA. My
point, anyway, was that there are many offshore banking centres where you
may keep accounts denominated in USD, Deutsche Marks, Swiss Francs or
other reputable currencies, and also choose branches of reputable
international banks, even American ones if you like (Citybank, Chase and
many other are represented world-wide). Personally, as bank I like the
HSBC Holdings group or other "British-overseas" institutions like Standard
Chartered, and as haven currency the Singapore Dollar (due to the very strong
balance sheet of that country). In any case, the depositor may choose.

Unfortunately, the costs of international transfers of funds are still
pretty high, even between branches of the same bank. If I remit funds from
Hong Kong to another country, my bank charges me HKD 100. (around USD 20)
per operation, flat. In other countries there are additional commissions
proportional to the amount (0.125% from Singapore, 0.1% from Macau etc).
Sometimes, charges are levied on incoming remittances too. That situation
is partly dependent on the regulatory framework, and partly on the
oligopolistic nature of the banking business. In any case, it makes
international transfers not viable for the settlement of small bills; that
may be the reason why First Virtual is still stuck with USA-only merchant
accounts. 

Now, my main objection to opening a US account is that it's unclear
whether or not, for simply receiving payments there, a non-resident and
non-citizen account holder like myself incurs in any tax liability with
Uncle Sam's Inland Revenue. Can anybody on this list shed light on the 
issue? Last time I checked, the guys at FV weren't sure either.