Re: Netscape the Big Win

At 5:25 PM 7/20/95, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
>>>>>> "tcmay" == Timothy C May <tcmay@sensemedia.net> writes:
>
> tcmay> Integration of crypto into Netscape is thus the Big Win.
>
> tcmay> I felt this was the case as far back as last fall, but my
> tcmay> recent experiences tell me this is more important than
> tcmay> ever. Integration of PGP and other crypto routines into Tin,
> tcmay> Pine, Elm, Joe, Emacs, etc., is just not as important.
>
>Careful here.  Deliberately or not, you are marginalizing the hard
>work of dozens of people, including me.  You are suggesting our work
>should have been done for Netscape instead, a program that a) is not
>free software (FSF sense); b) has no mail reader; and c) has no
>extension language.  Oh, and d) is horrendous as a news reader.

No offense, but "marginalizing" is what I love to do more than anything!

Seriously, the world is what the world is. I really don't care about "FSF"
one way or the other, and will join the rest of the world (apparently) in
using Netscape. And yes, I am "marginalizing" the work that anyone does on
"fringe" projects like Linux, which will likely always remain in the ghetto
of Unix hackers who want a cheap Unix running on their cheap 486 boxes...it
just ain't gonna take over inside corporations or amongst the many folks
like me.

Frankly, one of the great boons of my current setup is that I can
completely get away from Unix tools and commands, away from my Unix shell
account at Netcom, away from the arcane commands that vary from program to
program, away from tin and elm and emacs...my fingers are already
forgetting the emacs commands!

(Those of you like Unix, fine. I agree it is useful for many things, so I'm
not trying to debate Unix vs. the world. Just giving my perspective, and
apparently the perspective of the many who are adopting the Web browsers as
their "operating environments," insulated from the underlying cruft.)

(If the GNU folks were to do an "open, extensible, Netscape workalike. this
could be a win. Some may claim that Mosaic is/was that. We can debate this
in separate thread.)

I acknowledge that it has no mail reader, which is why I'm still using
Eudora. But as soon as it does....

And the newsreader is a matter of taste...it does all I want it to do, and
I'm a fairly heavy reader of News and contributor to Usenet groups. I
survived with "tin" for several years, so anything is possible.

>The packages that you implicitly denigrate provide far and away the
>best interfaces to PGP available today.  They are written with the
>tools available, whether it's a Windows shell, a hacked version of
>Elm, or an Emacs Lisp package.

I don't think the packages I "denigrate" are the key to the future
widespread use of crypto. Look at the actual usage patterns.


>Netscape is not a platform.  It is a browser.  It is only useful for
>viewing content that others have created, with a user interface that
>any idiot can use.  Consequently, yes, it is very popular with the
>masses and will become more so.

This makes my point. We may dismiss the masses as not being true Unix gurus
or as being ignorant of Emacs, but this is how crypto will become truly
ubiquitous. Not when people have to learn to compile code and create
clients, but when they can send encrypted messages easily and
transparently.

That Qualcomm (Eudora), Netscape, Frontier, Microsoft, Lotus, and others
are working on an interoperable "Secure/MIME" should be encouraging.


>end, but for which none has been written?  If it is ever feasible to
>do what you suggest, someone will do it; your musings will have no
>effect on that.  If you want to make a difference, try writing some
>code yourself...

Please, your insulting tone ("your musings," "try writing some code..") is
uncalled for. You have your views, I have mine.

From the large number of messages in this thread, apparently my points
struck a chord. Like it or not, huge numbers of users are using Netscape
and similar browsers. This is the basic reality. This is where the bulk of
crypto users are going to be, not compiling ftp-gotten PGP into their Emacs
configurations.

--Tim May

..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@sensemedia.net   | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-728-0152           | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Corralitos, CA         | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Timothy C. May writes:
> one way or the other, and will join the rest of the world (apparently) in
> using Netscape.

This from "Mr. Ascii" as of six months ago. Everyone remember when Tim
was flaming MIME and the rest? Well, Netscape was out back then, too.

> And yes, I am "marginalizing" the work that anyone does on "fringe"
> projects like Linux, which will likely always remain in the ghetto
> of Unix hackers who want a cheap Unix running on their cheap 486
> boxes...it just ain't gonna take over inside corporations or amongst
> the many folks like me.

I apologise for doing my IPSP work on a marginal operating system like
BSD Unix. Were I a truly non-marginalized person, I'd have realized
that Novell Netware and Appletalk were the internetworking
technologies of the future. I would suggest that you get rid of your
web browser while you can -- it was descended from code written for
Unix, that marginalized operating system. By the way, I understand
Netscape does their development with marginalized machines.

> That Qualcomm (Eudora), Netscape, Frontier, Microsoft, Lotus, and others
> are working on an interoperable "Secure/MIME" should be encouraging.

I'm glad to see you've not been paying attention to the IETF work on
MOSS. After all, we are a marginalized group -- we only built the
Internet, you know.

Perry, writing from the marginalized IETF meeting in Stockholm, where
the nowhere people define standards no one uses.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "tcmay" == Timothy C May <tcmay@sensemedia.net> writes:

 tcmay> Seriously, the world is what the world is. I really don't care
 tcmay> about "FSF" one way or the other, and will join the rest of
 tcmay> the world (apparently) in using Netscape.

I am not ignoring the reality of the situation.  I was not arguing
with your main point, which was that Netscape is going to take over
the world.  We all agree on that, I think.

My point was that your criticism of existing efforts is inappropriate.
I submit that the tools you marginalize are more responsible for
current PGP usage than everything you have ever written combined.  (I
intend no more offense with my comments than you do with yours; I am
just trying to make my point.)

 tcmay> And yes, I am "marginalizing" the work that anyone does on
 tcmay> "fringe" projects like Linux, which will likely always remain
 tcmay> in the ghetto of Unix hackers who want a cheap Unix running on
 tcmay> their cheap 486 boxes...it just ain't gonna take over inside
 tcmay> corporations or amongst the many folks like me.

(Tangential point) I think you underestimate Linux, which has an
installed base of a million or so systems.  But that is a different
topic entirely.

 tcmay> Frankly, one of the great boons of my current setup is that I
 tcmay> can completely get away from Unix tools and commands, away
 tcmay> from my Unix shell account at Netcom, away from the arcane
 tcmay> commands that vary from program to program, away from tin and
 tcmay> elm and emacs...my fingers are already forgetting the emacs
 tcmay> commands!

(Another tangential point, and blatant plug) To verify a PGP signature
from within Emacs, I click on the "Mailcrypt" menu bar item and select
"Verify Signature".  When I lack the public key of the signer,
Mailcrypt offers to fetch it for me from BAL's Web interface.  I
answer "y", and a few seconds later I see the output of PGP on the
public key (so I can check the key signatures).  I confirm that I want
to add the key to my ring, and then the original signature check
completes.

It isn't Netscape, but it isn't rocket science, either.  I agree,
though, that no matter what the interface looks like, it won't be
adopted by the masses if it doesn't run on Windows and Macintosh.

 tcmay> And the newsreader is a matter of taste...it does all I want
 tcmay> it to do, and I'm a fairly heavy reader of News and
 tcmay> contributor to Usenet groups. I survived with "tin" for
 tcmay> several years, so anything is possible.

(Yet another tangential point) If you ever try a news reader with
score files, I think you would be converted.  Especially adaptive
score files.

 tcmay> I don't think the packages I "denigrate" are the key to the
 tcmay> future widespread use of crypto. Look at the actual usage
 tcmay> patterns.

Yes, look at the current usage patterns for PGP.  It's far from being
everyone, but it is even farther from being no one.  Existing
interfaces do make a difference.

 tcmay> Please, your insulting tone ("your musings," "try writing some
 tcmay> code..") is uncalled for. You have your views, I have mine.

Point taken.

You just seemed to be playing the armchair quarterback, telling
developers that they are wasting their time when they are, in fact,
doing everything they can do at present.

Nevertheless, we are, I think, largely on the same team.  I apologize
for my tone.

When it becomes feasible to do what you are asking for Netscape, I am
sure that someone will do it.  At the moment, it is largely out of our
hands, since the Netscape interface is totally controlled by Netscape
Communications...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.3beta, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMA7GqHr7ES8bepftAQEOAwQA0fYoxk1u8lZOUuHRYE+m0ZHpXAQ33mGB
nS4ifVWIW+XLRyVX9Cb3AQbGHottoLt7kYnAmxXuSClCYvwFoC9yTV7aFM7Pe0gj
HHutvRbfd/Cqa8mqW3HnKfDLX9ZYWOX4b9Y5x5tfw6cVpPphHV98Jj18bP72I2vh
+fDUbNlVuEY=
=KeI1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----