Re: Java, Netscape, OpenDoc, and Babel

> But in which framework or language, given the profusion of frameworks and
> languages?
> 
> We had some TCL advocates a while back (Strick, Hal...)...any reaction to Java?

TCL solved my specific problem at that time.  Unfortunately I haven't
studied Java.  PM's comments (as usual) intrigue and bother me; I
need to study it.

TCL's biggest problem is that it's slow -- it's designed to be used
in the parts where speed doesn't really matter -- and it sounds
like java sovles that. 


Perry -- do you have the same basic objection to Safe-TCL that you do
do to Java?  I would think so.

 
			strick


> And so it goes.
> 
> --Tim May

strick at Jihad writes:
> Perry -- do you have the same basic objection to Safe-TCL that you do
> do to Java?  I would think so.

I do, but not as strongly. The language is much more constrained and
actually does have a lot of the evil bits ripped clear out (or at
least they could be ripped out.)

Perry

> 
> 
> strick at Jihad writes:
> > Perry -- do you have the same basic objection to Safe-TCL that you do
> > do to Java?  I would think so.
> 
> I do, but not as strongly. The language is much more constrained and
> actually does have a lot of the evil bits ripped clear out (or at
> least they could be ripped out.)

  The same applies to Java. Anything can be ripped out of Java by removing
the classes with the "native" methods on the local side. The class loader
will barf at an object that references a class that doesn't exist. In fact,
since that class contains the only way possible to access that privelege
(it encapsulates all the nasty unix system calls you don't want to allow)
there is no way for the untrusted code to call for instance, open(),
because it doesn't know the address of it. Java does compile-time
emasculation. (the compiler I'm speaking of is the Java compiler which
must be run from the shell. The compiler is not a part of the browser)


Now Safe-TCL has another mode of failure altogether. First of all, the way
the interpreter is made "safe" is to take a fully working tcl interpreter
(with full priveleges) at run time, and use TclDeleteCommand() to remove
offending commands. Safe-TCL is not emasculated at compile time, but at
run time. Now what if this removal-of-dangerous-commands process fails
sometime, or fails to remove just a single command, because of say, a
fence-post error, and that command just happens to be 'exec'?
Furthermore, two interpreters are created, a "safe" one and an "unsafe"
one. It is very possible for a programmer to accidently pass the pointer
to the wrong interpreter. You should be nervous of an unsafe interpreter
ever existing at all.
 

Lastly, "declareharmless" allows priveleges to be added to Safe-TCL at
run time, vs Java which only allows that by recompiling Java classes.
If by any means, a trusted interpreter ever gets to execute this command,
all is lost.


One last comment: Java is a language specification, not an implementation
specification. Sun wants Java to be a free and open language with other
vendors creating compilers and runtime environments. Whether or not
the Java runtime executes in a separate process space, chrooted(), etc
is an implementation detail. In fact, I'm not totally sure that Hotjava
doesn't do this already. Implementation details are not documented in
the Java papers available at the Java home page.


You have to read more than just the Java whitepaper to get an estimation
of its security. 

-Ray