Re: Collection of personal info

At 10:15 PM 9/6/95, Rob Lowry wrote:

>Beyond having the willies.. This is more than just scary, it feels like
>rape when you think about it for awhile. Everything you buy, on credit, is
>recorded and sold to someone who wants to know your secrets. Everytime
>you make a banking transaction, someone is watching and compiling the
>data.
>
>Is there any legal recourse to get your name removed from the sellable list?
>Or is it too late and we can not save even the vestiges of our privacy?

Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier
Service" I operate.

Sounds creepy and scary, eh? Well, it's part of freedom.

The "legal recourse" you mention about having your name taken off lists
kept by people or agencies ultimately involves visits by the authorities to
private homes (like mine) to verify that the data are being "properly
collected" and that no "illegal or incorrect data" are being stored.

If someone wants something kept secret, the solution is to keep it secret.

If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of
postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital
pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.

Things are much simpler and less stressful when you don't look to the law
to fix things.

--Tim May

---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
Corralitos, CA              | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^756839      | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

> Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier
> Service" I operate.

At least you notified me.. :) Something the TRW crew or others like them 
do not do.


> If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of
> postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital
> pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.

This is true.. I could adopt a nym, such as I use on my BBS, or when I am 
doing other stuff on the net.. but it is difficult at best to get a new 
set of credit cards, ID and so on with a new name/alias and still 
maintain your own name. If it were possible to have an alias in real 
life, as easy as it is to get one on the 'net that is, then I would most 
certainly do so..

'Frothmonger' <g>

On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:

> > Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier
> > Service" I operate.
> 
> At least you notified me.. :) Something the TRW crew or others like them 
> do not do.
> 
> 
> > If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of
> > postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital
> > pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
> 
> This is true.. I could adopt a nym, such as I use on my BBS, or when I am 
> doing other stuff on the net.. but it is difficult at best to get a new 
> set of credit cards, ID and so on with a new name/alias and still 
> maintain your own name.

In fact it's not difficult.  It's quite simple to estlablish new identity 
for the individual willing to risk the charges and consequences of 
exposure.  The basic impediment is time.  Good credit doesn't come 
overnight.  The second impediment is tax evasion- which is less than 
justifiable in the United States on the grounds of privacy.  If you're 
willing to be patient, and pay taxes on more than one name, its easy to 
maintain several identities.


> If it were possible to have an alias in real 
> life, as easy as it is to get one on the 'net that is, then I would most 
> certainly do so..

Which tells me how serious you really are about your privacy.  You have 
made a decision here about how much trouble privacy is worth to you, 
which is "not much."

I hear people bitch about privacy endlessly.  Privacy helps those who 
help themselves to privacy.  I think Mr. May was precisely correct in saying 
that it is so much easier and simpler for one to rely on self privacy 
insurance rather than government privacy insurance.

> 'Frothmonger' <g>

> Which tells me how serious you really are about your privacy.  You have 
> made a decision here about how much trouble privacy is worth to you, 
> which is "not much."

If I were single, it would be a lot easier to just start making up names 
and living under assumed aliases.. but with a wife and two kids, I have 
to follow the rules a bit more.. 

My privacy is worth variable amounts depending on who has access to it.. 
I certainly do not care if anyone on this list knows who I am or not, as 
it is something I voluntarily chose to join. Selling info about me, 
without notifying me before hand is another situation altogether. Even 
the magazines I subscribe to have notices that my name may be sold.. and 
the mags that don't have such a warning, but sell my name anyways, get 
cancelled as soon as I discover it. Far easier to stop by the local PC 
store and buy it a week later than to have mounds of junk mail piling up.

> I hear people bitch about privacy endlessly.  Privacy helps those who 
> help themselves to privacy.  I think Mr. May was precisely correct in saying 
> that it is so much easier and simpler for one to rely on self privacy 
> insurance rather than government privacy insurance.

Again, you both are correct, and perhaps I was overstating my position in 
regards to the TRW/etc. groups.. I have a tendancy to do so. Each of us 
has the responsibility to monitor the activities in our lives, both 
directly and indirectly. Whether this is watching our spending to make 
sure we do no overcharge, or encrypting mail to keep in secure, we need 
to be aware of what we are doing, and the reactions of others as a result 
of our actions. In this case, the action is spending money on credit, and 
the reaction is being monitored by credit agencies. My solution was to 
get rid of all the credit cards 4 years ago.. my credit history is 
trashed in part do to very low activity over the last 4 years, and of 
course, the side effect of maxing out 4 cards.

-stepping off soapbox and looking for the next topic..-

Tim and I have corresponded about this previously,
and again he neglects the distinction between 
collection and storage, on the one hand, and 
retrival and dissemination, on the other.  If you
do the latter, your content better be accurate.

That's the difference in Tim and TRW.  So far.:)

MacN

On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:

> > Rob, I have entered this posting of yours into the "BlackNet Dossier
> > Service" I operate.
> 
> At least you notified me.. :) Something the TRW crew or others like them 
> do not do.
> 
> 
> > If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of
> > postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital
> > pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
> 
> This is true.. I could adopt a nym, such as I use on my BBS, or when I am 
> doing other stuff on the net.. but it is difficult at best to get a new 
> set of credit cards, ID and so on with a new name/alias and still 
> maintain your own name. If it were possible to have an alias in real 
> life, as easy as it is to get one on the 'net that is, then I would most 
> certainly do so..
> 
> 'Frothmonger' <g>
> 
>

On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 10:15 PM 9/6/95, Rob Lowry wrote:
> 
> >Beyond having the willies.. This is more than just scary, it feels like
> >rape when you think about it for awhile. Everything you buy, on credit, is
> >recorded and sold to someone who wants to know your secrets. Everytime
> >you make a banking transaction, someone is watching and compiling the
> >data.
> >
> 
> If someone doesn't want their postings going into my 220 megabyte file of
> postings, they shouldn't send them to me. Or they should adopt a digital
> pseudonym, unlinkable to their True Name or any other nyms they may have.
> 
> Things are much simpler and less stressful when you don't look to the law
> to fix things.
> 

Nor was I suggesting a legal solution (I know your comment
was triggered by Rob's request for legal recourse) but instead
suggesting that things are farther along than some people realize.

Someone suggested a rational, non-hysterical approach to
converting people.  Perhaps.  I certainly wrote a nice letter
to the editor of a magazine which published a piece about
electronic checking, and made sure to mention that e-cash
would be preferable to some.  

On the other hand, The Gub'mint is certainly conducting a
campaign overt and covert to throttle unlimited and uncontrolled
use of cryptography.  That combined with how politicized
things are these days, it can be difficult to conduct a rational
debate or in fact find anyone who wants to talk. 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that we need to a pre-emptive
crypto strike.  But just as the 'Privacy Card' has been debated
here endlessly, so too reaching critical market mass w/a 
'bump in the cord' product.



David Neal <dneal@usis.com> - GNU Planet Aerospace 1-800-PLN-8-GNU
Unix, Sybase and Networking consultant. "...you have a personal responsibility 
to be pro-active in the defense of your own civil liberties." - S. McCandlish

> Nor was I suggesting a legal solution (I know your comment
> was triggered by Rob's request for legal recourse) but instead
> suggesting that things are farther along than some people realize.

Nor do I support additional rules/laws or regulations.. but if there are 
existing ones to screw with, use 'em..
Recently I had a bill turned over to collections from, of all places, the 
daycare we used to take our kids too.. we owe them about $1300 in their 
estimation. The reason we have not paid is due to 11 days of lost work 
due to head lice that they provided to my kids, plus they stopped serving 
breakfast which was in the contract we signed when enrolling the kids there..
I was notified by the collection co. about this submittal (now $1500 for 
some reason..) and by law, I can dispute this in writing, thus slowing 
the wheels of the collection monster horribly. I did so.. and for the 
last 4 months, they have been trying to prove I owe money.. I was asking 
if such a system exist for the release of your credit info.. and it 
appears that there is no safety mechanism in that monster.  Rather than 
cry out for more laws to be twisted against us later, I agree that 
letting it happen, and using cash instead of credit, is the smart answer 
here.

Someone care to point me at e-cash info? sounds interesting.. remember, 
I am new to the crypto scene and still think PGP is neato ;)

On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:
> I am new to the crypto scene and still think PGP is neato ;)

Welcome, you will learn a lot of great material here, and yes it is 
neato.  I just wish it came pre-installed with WinDoze...

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> 
> Welcome, you will learn a lot of great material here, and yes it is 
> neato.  I just wish it came pre-installed with WinDoze...

Don't worry, as soon as it becomes polically correct, and MS can find a 
way to make $$ on it, it will be rammed down our throats in WinDoze.. :)

a sonewhat similar system does exist, also unser federal
statute, for credit reporting agencies.

YMMV

MacN

On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Rob Lowry wrote:

> 
> > Nor was I suggesting a legal solution (I know your comment
> > was triggered by Rob's request for legal recourse) but instead
> > suggesting that things are farther along than some people realize.
> 
> Nor do I support additional rules/laws or regulations.. but if there are 
> existing ones to screw with, use 'em..
> Recently I had a bill turned over to collections from, of all places, the 
> daycare we used to take our kids too.. we owe them about $1300 in their 
> estimation. The reason we have not paid is due to 11 days of lost work 
> due to head lice that they provided to my kids, plus they stopped serving 
> breakfast which was in the contract we signed when enrolling the kids there..
> I was notified by the collection co. about this submittal (now $1500 for 
> some reason..) and by law, I can dispute this in writing, thus slowing 
> the wheels of the collection monster horribly. I did so.. and for the 
> last 4 months, they have been trying to prove I owe money.. I was asking 
> if such a system exist for the release of your credit info.. and it 
> appears that there is no safety mechanism in that monster.  Rather than 
> cry out for more laws to be twisted against us later, I agree that 
> letting it happen, and using cash instead of credit, is the smart answer 
> here.
> 
> Someone care to point me at e-cash info? sounds interesting.. remember, 
> I am new to the crypto scene and still think PGP is neato ;)
> 
> 
>