Re: Linking = Showing = Transferring?

>Another even more subtle problem is inline images, can you say that a
>page with an inline image sourced from a foreign site must obey the
>foreign jurisdiction.  I would assert this is so, because the web
>surfer's *browser* imports the relevant parts of the page from
>whatever locations (and jurisdictions) they are in, and displays them
>as one page.

Inline images are not references -- they are part of the page being
retrieved.  

>	<img src="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/obscura/rsa.gif">
>So that the image is *imported* by the *viewer*, and not supplied by
>www.obscura.

Inlined images are just a convenient way of chunking.  The image is imported
by the viewer because the server, as part of the base document, told it
to do so.  You might be able to fool an ignorant court, but it still
doesn't change the fact that Lance has a document that in the natural
course of operation of the Web, exports crypto.  I would advise him to
edit the page so it reads
	Click <A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/obscura/rsa.gif">here
	to see a picture of the shirt.

Heck, the very word, "inline" gives it away.
	/r$

> > [using inline images to display theoretically ITAR violating gifs]
> 
> Inline images are not references -- they are part of the page being
> retrieved.  
>
> >	<img src="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/obscura/rsa.gif">
> >So that the image is *imported* by the *viewer*, and not supplied by
> >www.obscura.
> 
> I would advise him to edit the page so it reads
>
>	Click <A HREF="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/obscura/rsa.gif">here
>	to see a picture of the shirt.

I wrote the page, Lance kindly provided www space which I set up, he's
seen it, and thought it funny even.  Sounds like you seriously think
this is a danger to Lance, something I hoped I avoided by using an
inline from outside the ITAR zone.

> Inlined images are just a convenient way of chunking.  The image is
> imported by the viewer because the server, as part of the base
> document, told it to do so.  You might be able to fool an ignorant
> court, but it still doesn't change the fact that Lance has a
> document that in the natural course of operation of the Web, exports
> crypto.

Weeell, I'm not so sure.  I mean the page says to view this page first
get this picture from here, this one from here, this text, format and
display.  It is not illegal to say *where* to get crypto, just illegal
to export it, right?  He hasn't exported it, just told the viewer
where to fetch it from.

I think this case is safer than the porn one, because the actual data
in this case is legal in both jurisdictions, it just must not be
transferred from jurisdiction US -> jurisdiction non-US, which it has
not been.

If it were something which where illegal in the US, hmm, lets say an
image of a slightly underage (underage under US definitions, not
dutch) dutch porn star, then having links to it might be argued as
incitement to view something which it would be illegal to view in the
US, something which is effectively illegal to import into the US.

I would agree with you were the information imported by way of an
inline image actually illegal in the US, as the person loading would
have no choice.  In such a case a disclaimer might be appropriate:

	warning, it may be illegal to import the following link into
	the US, I will not be responsible if you are in the US and
	click on this link

But what is there to disclaim with inline data which is itself legal
in both jurisdictions, and the only legal question being the transfer
of that data from US -> UK, which the protocol ensures does not
happen?

Browser in the US, text in US, crypto gif imported from UK, both legal.

Browser outside US, text in US, crypto gif imported from UK, both legal.

See a flaw in that?

Try that in France might be more interesting, where it really is
illegal to import crypto.

It's kind of theoretical, but an interesting argument... what happens
when this happens with porn, is perhaps a more tricky question, re
possible illegality of import from outside US, maybe in such cases you
should request the viewer to turn off autoload of images, so that they
must request them after reading the disclaimer text.  Or perhaps it
would be necessary to ensure that it never happens automatically
without the user clicking on a button certifying that they are not in
the US, the antithesis of MIT's I affirm I am a US citizen blah, blah,
that goes with getting PGP from their site (I didn't get it btw, I
just read the questions for my amusement).

Adam

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Hi,

> Browser in the US, text in US, crypto gif imported from UK, both legal.
> 
> Browser outside US, text in US, crypto gif imported from UK, both legal.
> 
> See a flaw in that?

Not directly, but... what if for some strange reason the image is routed
through US gateways on its way from the UK to, for example, Germany?
I mean, The Net (tm) is a strange beast, and you can rarely tell which way
the message flows... you can't even DO anything about it.

Bye,
	Peter
- -- 
Peter Conrad    | "Those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all
Am Heckenberg 1 |  missing on what life's about, you only live once, so take
56727 Mayen     |  hold of the chance, don't end up like others the same song
Germany         |  and dance!"                      - Metallica, 'Motorbreath'

         Email: p_conrad@informatik.uni-kl.de,conrad@unix-ag.uni-kl.de

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Rich Salz writes:
 > Inline images are not references -- they are part of the page being
 > retrieved.  
I don't agree...
 > >	<img src="http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/obscura/rsa.gif">
 > >So that the image is *imported* by the *viewer*, and not supplied by
 > >www.obscura.
indeed
 > Inlined images are just a convenient way of chunking.  The image is imported
 > by the viewer because the server, as part of the base document, told it
 > to do so.  You might be able to fool an ignorant court, but it still
 > doesn't change the fact that Lance has a document that in the natural
 > course of operation of the Web, exports crypto.
                                   *******
[...]
Oh ? exports from Uk to Uk for instance  ??
how could it export anything without any packet crossing a "border"
even virtual ?

Maybe it violates some rules about spreading information, knowledge
of where to find 'offending' materials, but this is certainly not
breaking any export rules... IMO

dl

-- 
Laurent Demailly * http://hplyot.obspm.fr/~dl/ * Linux|PGP|Gnu|Tcl|...  Freedom
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