Re: NSA Realists v. Nuts

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In article <199510071424.AA00279@october.ducktown.org>,
mkj@october.ducktown.org wrote:

> Need I point out that pride in one's work is not necessarily exclusive
> of evil?  Rarely does anyone actually think of themselves as evil --
> and those few who do are usually just harmless nuts.  The most evil
> and destructive people throughout history have always thought of
> themselves as good people, doing good work.

Let me illustrate this with an example. During my visit to Dachau
Concentration Camp, I saw original lab notebooks of experiments designed
to increase the survial rate of pilots downed above the cold waters of the
North Sea. A noble cause.

The notebooks contained pages upon pages of tables listing survial times
vs. water temperature, the data gained by dropping subjects into a tub
containing water of a defined temperature.

I them saw more tables of the effects of various methods investigated to
revive hypothermia victims who were near death. One of the treatments
under investigation was dropping the patient into boiling water. Surely
this type of research falls under the category of evil.

But the scientists that conducted the study would not have thought so.
They believed that they did a favor to humanity. The fact that to this day
the treatment of hypothermia is based upon the results of this study,
saving the lives of thousands of patients over the decades past, would
surely - in the experimenters' minds - have vindicated their gruesome
deeds.

Ponder this,
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On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Lucky Green wrote:


> Let me illustrate this with an example. During my visit to Dachau
> Concentration Camp, I saw original lab notebooks of experiments designed
> to increase the survial rate of pilots downed above the cold waters of the
> North Sea. A noble cause.
 
Let me illustrate this with an example. During my visit to the Center 
for Disease Control in Atlanta, I saw original lab notebooks of experiments
designed to cure Aids, Hanta virus, etc. A noble cause.


But all of this noble research was obtained by holding the entire 
population of a nation in thrall.  These people were threatened with 
death if they didn't support this research.  Armed men herded resisters 
into camps guarded by high walls and barbed wire.

All government research Nazi or whatever is soaked in the blood of 
millions.

DCF

On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> 
> On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> 
> > Let me illustrate this with an example. During my visit to Dachau
> > Concentration Camp, I saw original lab notebooks of experiments designed
> > to increase the survial rate of pilots downed above the cold waters of the
> > North Sea. A noble cause.
>  
> Let me illustrate this with an example. During my visit to the Center 
> for Disease Control in Atlanta, I saw original lab notebooks of experiments
> designed to cure Aids, Hanta virus, etc. A noble cause.
> 
> But all of this noble research was obtained by holding the entire 
> population of a nation in thrall.  These people were threatened with 
> death if they didn't support this research.  Armed men herded resisters 
> into camps guarded by high walls and barbed wire.
> 
> All government research Nazi or whatever is soaked in the blood of 
> millions.
> 
> DCF
> 

Deep thinking Duncan, government bad, me good. . . . . . 

I presume in your moral superiority you also refuse to use public roads 
and bridges, purchase your food supplies on the black market to ensure 
that they could not possibly have been USDA inspected, and in every other 
way endeavor to never eat the fruit of the poisoned tree that is the USGovt.
What a heap of self-righteous horseshit.  

Just call me a modern Mengele, and excuse me while I go bathe in the 
blood of millions. . . . .

Acknowledgements:
CJL is supported in part by NIH grants ES05777 and CA61949.


C. J. Leonard                     (    /      "DNA is groovy"
                                   \ /                - Watson & Crick
<cjl@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>      / \     <--  major groove
                                  (    \
Finger for public key               \   )
Strong-arm for secret key             /    <--  minor groove
Thumb-screws for pass-phrase        /   )

C.J. Leonard writes --

> On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> > 
> > All government research Nazi or whatever is soaked in the blood of 
> > millions.
> 
> Acknowledgements:
> CJL is supported in part by NIH grants ES05777 and CA61949.

I'm paid by the DOE. Constantly having to get the upholstery in my Bronco 
cleaned. (Don't do this at home, kids. Government research is a messy
business.)


                                 -- Will

On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, W. Kinney wrote:

> I'm paid by the DOE. Constantly having to get the upholstery in my Bronco 
> cleaned. (Don't do this at home, kids. Government research is a messy
> business.)

2400 Americans are imprisoned every year for federal income tax 
violations.  Approximately one person is killed every year in arrests 
involving federal income tax violations.  Millions of man-years are spent 
annually in involuntary servitude to comply with tax laws.  Public 
employees should be aware of the fact that their contribution to society 
is of such low value that it will not be paid for without a gun to the 
customer's head.

Luckily cheap switches and strong crypto will make it harder for large 
monopoly institutions to maintain their controls.  Look around for some 
honest work.

DCF

"Who thinks Michael Milkin should expatriate and renounce his citizenship 
so he can get back into the securities business without needing to fear 
the attacks of the diseased dwarfs (and one giantess) of the Klinton 
Kabinet."

"Just trying to prove that the Republican Congresscritters aren't 
extremists."

As much as I agree with Duncan on this topic, it really isn't
cypherpunks material. We are getting very far afield of
cryptography. Could we please take this to private mail or
talk.politics.libertarian or some such?

Duncan Frissell writes:
> 2400 Americans are imprisoned every year for federal income tax 
> violations.  Approximately one person is killed every year in arrests 
> involving federal income tax violations.  Millions of man-years are spent 
> annually in involuntary servitude to comply with tax laws.  Public 
> employees should be aware of the fact that their contribution to society 
> is of such low value that it will not be paid for without a gun to the 
> customer's head.

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:24:06 -0400 (EDT)
    From: Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com>
    
    2400 Americans are imprisoned every year for federal income tax 
    violations.  Approximately one person is killed every year in arrests 
    involving federal income tax violations.

*This* is the blood of millions you spoke of?!?  Oh please . . . .

Considering that you launched into this as a comparison to the Nazi
`medical experiments' I can only conclude that you're hopelessly out
of touch with anything similar to reality.

			Rick