[NOISE] Caution! Netscape 2.0 and Linux

Hi all.

Just a warning to steer clear of Netscape 2.0 on Linux. It can't
resolve FQDNs, its distributed as a staticly linked a.out binary
*AGAIN*, and I'm hearing lots of reports sitting here on IRC that it
locks up R6 versions of XFree solid on a random basis. Not to mention
that there is no java support yet for Linux, and the Java support in
the Sun/Windows version of netscape is based on the new (and
imcompatible with earlier versions) beta version of Java which sun
pimped out to Netscape and won't release the source code too.

The part about not resolving FQDNs might be an undocumented
feature. The most secure transaction is one that doesn't take place at
all. ;)

Have fun,
Christopher

> 
> Hi all.
> 
> Just a warning to steer clear of Netscape 2.0 on Linux. It can't
> resolve FQDNs, its distributed as a staticly linked a.out binary
> *AGAIN*, and I'm hearing lots of reports sitting here on IRC that it

   It was released as a dynamically linked binary first, however
gazillions of Linux users who didn't purchase Motif (and hence could not
run Netscape 2.0 since it uses Motif), complained, and Netscape
put up a statically linked version immediately.

> locks up R6 versions of XFree solid on a random basis. Not to mention
> that there is no java support yet for Linux, and the Java support in
> the Sun/Windows version of netscape is based on the new (and
> imcompatible with earlier versions) beta version of Java which sun
> pimped out to Netscape and won't release the source code too.

   No, the Java in Netscape 2.0 is Java BETA. The Java used in
earlier versions was Java Alpha, and Sun explicitly said that
the class hierarchy *would* change. The Java used in Netscape 2.0
is the same Java you get in SunSoft's Java development environment.

-Ray

> > Just a warning to steer clear of Netscape 2.0 on Linux. It can't
> > resolve FQDNs, its distributed as a staticly linked a.out binary
> > *AGAIN*, and I'm hearing lots of reports sitting here on IRC that it
> 
>    It was released as a dynamically linked binary first, however
> gazillions of Linux users who didn't purchase Motif (and hence could not
> run Netscape 2.0 since it uses Motif), complained, and Netscape
> put up a statically linked version immediately.

Releaseing an a.out binary without motif staticly linked is a dumb
idea. There were approximately a dozen vendors of Motif for Linux,
however none of their libraries were compatible as they could not
afree on where the library should reside in memory and how much space
to allocate for future additions to the libraries.

Thats why the linux developers switched to ELF format binaries. Under
ELF all symbol names are resolved at run-time so one man's motif will
work just fine for everyone elf. 

Normally I would suggest that someone should drop the good people at
netscape a hint that you can link Motif staticly without linking all
of the X11 libraries staticly as well, except they are still producing
a.out bins and since nobody has a.out libraries any more, making one
dynamicly linked wouldn't do anyone any good.

> > that there is no java support yet for Linux, and the Java support in
> > the Sun/Windows version of netscape is based on the new (and
> > imcompatible with earlier versions) beta version of Java which sun
> > pimped out to Netscape and won't release the source code too.
> 
>    No, the Java in Netscape 2.0 is Java BETA. The Java used in
> earlier versions was Java Alpha, and Sun explicitly said that
> the class hierarchy *would* change. The Java used in Netscape 2.0
> is the same Java you get in SunSoft's Java development environment.

I said it first, but you said it better. Netscape uses the Beta Java
stuff, which is totally incomptible with the Alpha Java stuff. Nobody
has the Beta java stuff except for Netscape because sun is refusing to
release it to anyone else for the moment -- that means you can't get
it at sun's site.

Christopher

(I have no idea what this has to do with Cypherpunks, but...)

Christopher J. Shaulis wrote:
> 
> Releaseing an a.out binary without motif staticly linked is a dumb
> idea.

It wasn't a dumb idea, it was a mistake :-)  We didn't intend to do it.

> Thats why the linux developers switched to ELF format binaries. Under
> ELF all symbol names are resolved at run-time so one man's motif will
> work just fine for everyone elf.

Even when ELF has taken over the Linux world, we will still be linking
Motif statically because we can't count on everyone having it, and even
if we could, we can't count on everyone having the same version.

And if Motif is static, then the other X libs have to be static, because
all versions of Motif won't interoperate with all versions of Xlib and
Xt.  (In particular, Motif 1.2.4 and X11R6 don't get along.)

> Normally I would suggest that someone should drop the good people at
> netscape a hint that you can link Motif staticly without linking all
> of the X11 libraries staticly as well, except they are still producing
> a.out bins and since nobody has a.out libraries any more, making one
> dynamicly linked wouldn't do anyone any good.

If you can prove that "nobody has a.out libraries any more," we will
stop distributing a.out binaries and start distributing ELF binaries.
But we don't have the resources to build and test two Linux binaries,
especially given that we don't sell the Linux version.  So, given that
we're only building one binary, my belief is that everyone will be
able to run an a.out binary, and a much smaller number of people
will be able to run an ELF binary.  If you have numbers, I'd be happy 
to be proven wrong.

-- 
Jamie Zawinski    jwz@netscape.com   http://www.netscape.com/people/jwz/
``A signature isn't a return address, it is the ASCII equivalent of a
  black velvet clown painting; it's a rectangle of carets surrounding
  a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who.''
                                                         -- Chris Maeda