Fred Cohen: Re: CFS and Linux

I thought people would love to see this.

Note especially "Dr." Fred's threat to have toad.com confiscated as
part of a conspiracy against his reputation.

Perry

------- Forwarded Message

From: fc@all.net (Fred Cohen)
Message-Id: <9512231757.AA22460@all.net>
Subject: Re: CFS and Linux
To: perry@piermont.com
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:57:40 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199512231733.MAA07103@jekyll.piermont.com> from "Perry E. Metzger" at Dec 23, 95 12:33:15 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
X-UIDL: 819742624.003

> Fred Cohen writes to me in private:
> > > Alice B. Cohen writes:
> > 
> > If you mean to imply that I am Alice, that constitutes slander, and I
> > will sue.
> 
> I'd love to see you try. Please, sue me immediately.
> 
> Since you agree in public with Alice practically all the time, the
> damages would be fascinating to assess. "Your honor, my client, who
> has no reputation in the group we are discussing to speak of, feels
> that by being publically conflated with this anonymous personage who's
> opinions he univerasally agrees with that his reputation has been
> damaged, since, well, er, we aren't sure why, but it has. I mean,
> people might ascribe opinions to him that he claims to hold! Obviously
> that must be damaging!"

To the contrary, I have a very good global reputation, and you are
knowingly and maliciously attempting to slander me by claiming that
I use a false identity to support my positions.

> What would the monetary damages be, Fred? I mean, there are some
> people here who would gain a bit of added respect for you since being
> Alice would imply that you knew how to use anonymous remailers, so
> there would be some evidence that you could do *something*, which many
> people here had in doubt up until now. I suspect you actually gain
> reputation that way, so perhaps I should sue you for unjust
> enrichment. (*)

Let's see.  I guess I would start by having the police confiscate the
toad.com computers becfause thay are part of a criminal conspiracy to
daamage my reputation.  Criminal because of the recent changes in the
law that prohibit you from sending me information I don't want to get.

The dollar value would be $1 plus a public apology plus all costs of the
suit plus my time to right the wrong (at my usual fee of course).  Of
course the fact that you have decided to make this posting in public
justifies my extensive efforts to clear my reputation which, unless you
apologize immediately will be surprisingly enjoyable for me.

- -> See: Info-Sec Heaven at URL http://all.net/
Management Analytics - 216-686-0090 - PO Box 1480, Hudson, OH 44236


------- End of Forwarded Message

> I thought people would love to see this.
> 
> Note especially "Dr." Fred's threat to have toad.com confiscated as
> part of a conspiracy against his reputation.

I'm sure a number of people, myself included, would be willing
to host the CP list should "Dr" Fred make good his threat.

I'd even be willing to testify in court as to the nature of
Fred's reputation.  I'm sure the operator of the Firewalls list
would be too.


-- 
Eric Murray  ericm@lne.com  ericm@motorcycle.com  http://www.lne.com/ericm
PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03  92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF

Eric Murray <ericm@lne.com> writes:

>I'm sure a number of people, myself included, would be willing
>to host the CP list should "Dr" Fred make good his threat.

And a number of people would no doubt start boycotting Dr. Freds company
loudly and publicly should he attack an innocent third party such as
toad.com.  Fred and Perry are two peas in pod, but as long as they
keep their disputes strictly between them I could care less.
-- 
"Home pages are the pet rock of the 90s.  We all have them, we all think
 they're very cute.  But in a few years we're going to look back and be
 pretty embarrassed."     -- Tony Shepps <toad@pond.com>

On Sat, 23 Dec 1995, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> > Fred Cohen writes to me in private:
...
> 
> Let's see.  I guess I would start by having the police confiscate the
> toad.com computers becfause thay are part of a criminal conspiracy to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I didn't realize that AI research was that far along.  Can someone point 
me to the specs for the computer that can become a "part of a criminal 
conspiracy"??

EBD


> daamage my reputation.  Criminal because of the recent changes in the
> law that prohibit you from sending me information I don't want to get.
> 

Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
**********************************************************
Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!

On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, Brian Davis wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Dec 1995, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> > > Fred Cohen writes to me in private:
> ...
> > 
> > Let's see.  I guess I would start by having the police confiscate the
> > toad.com computers becfause thay are part of a criminal conspiracy to
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I didn't realize that AI research was that far along.  Can someone point 
> me to the specs for the computer that can become a "part of a criminal 
> conspiracy"??
> 
> EBD
> 
> 
> > daamage my reputation.  Criminal because of the recent changes in the
> > law that prohibit you from sending me information I don't want to get.
> > 
>
	the basis of the seizure is for evidence collection.  then they
    take their sweet time scrounging the disks for evidence.  If no
    evidence is found, they give it back --eventually.  I saw one case go 
    by a couple years back where they were trying to make the computer an
    accessory to the crime (I dunno, maybe it was supposed to auto-dial
    and drop the dime --no that's in 18USC as failure to snitch!)

	of course, if there are drugs involved, they confiscate it as
    spoils of the criminal act and the equipment is impounded and
    eventually sold after conviction for the benefit of their slush funds. 

	I would imagin you have seen plenty of the latter one in the
    Federal attorney's office. this also gets into the issues of private
    cryptography and that _everybody_ should give up privacy protection,
    first amendment rights, etc. so uncle can catch a few dopers, gun 
    runners, and other assorted malcreants [sic] --like the difference 
    between {mis,mal}feasance: in both cases you get fucked, but 'mal' is
    intentional... 

 
> Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
>
    hey, at least you admit you're having a good time!

> **********************************************************
> Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!
> 
    

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
#!/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
$m=unpack(H.$w,$m."\0"x$w),$_=`echo "16do$w 2+4Oi0$d*-^1[d2%Sa
2/d0<X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print
pack('H*',$_)while read(STDIN,$m,($w=2*$d-1+length$n&~1)/2)

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAy5vBesAAAEEAN8cl6vHXrKZ9lFfZDgfyJRr3HidW77Uio7F25QF6QXca5z/
AS3ZrWsa0CjF2nwrqmyb1E5no7dFB+70ZfK8233r7ykVkWRojT+0K71lnUZO4cjG
+d19/ehXkDpkH3iHU7Uyo4ZdXLiI6uoFDS7ilzx8PCKcgvfq7b04kQrCC2kFAAUX
tAZhdHRpbGGJAJUDBRAur/X7xUpiaI661j0BAbVUA/9RSKN5sOFVB4rjV6+a2aWD
LjD5g/+eZaB/hI98qlPP+SBwzO3+K7+JWt3Fez0gKVju228ACGkvilg2VkMtQ0zm
YCexYL0U9StzHt4xEpowpmaWx22jpEvWnI10LZvT/NO3uYg5r/ezVYc7autKvfvI
rVOo322RkA0HNVV1rqjMGw==
=UNt4
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, attila wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, Brian Davis wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 23 Dec 1995, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> > > > Fred Cohen writes to me in private:
> > ...
> > > 
> > > Let's see.  I guess I would start by having the police confiscate the
> > > toad.com computers becfause thay are part of a criminal conspiracy to
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > I didn't realize that AI research was that far along.  Can someone point 
> > me to the specs for the computer that can become a "part of a criminal 
> > conspiracy"??
> > 
> > EBD
> > 
> > 
> > > daamage my reputation.  Criminal because of the recent changes in the
> > > law that prohibit you from sending me information I don't want to get.
> > > 
> >
> 	the basis of the seizure is for evidence collection.  then they
>     take their sweet time scrounging the disks for evidence.  If no
>     evidence is found, they give it back --eventually.  I saw one case go 
>     by a couple years back where they were trying to make the computer an
>     accessory to the crime (I dunno, maybe it was supposed to auto-dial
>     and drop the dime --no that's in 18USC as failure to snitch!)

Much truth here, but not relevant to Dr. Fred's threat of a civil suit.  
He can't have his attorneys just call the FBI to pick up toad's computer.

CoS's seizure of computers, while shameful, was based on a different 
legal theory than the good Dr. can possibly allege. 


EBD


> 	of course, if there are drugs involved, they confiscate it as
>     spoils of the criminal act and the equipment is impounded and
>     eventually sold after conviction for the benefit of their slush funds. 
> 
> 	I would imagin you have seen plenty of the latter one in the
>     Federal attorney's office. this also gets into the issues of private
>     cryptography and that _everybody_ should give up privacy protection,
>     first amendment rights, etc. so uncle can catch a few dopers, gun 
>     runners, and other assorted malcreants [sic] --like the difference 
>     between {mis,mal}feasance: in both cases you get fucked, but 'mal' is
>     intentional... 
> 
>  
> > Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
> >
>     hey, at least you admit you're having a good time!
> 
> > **********************************************************
> > Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!
> > 
>     
> 
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> #!/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
> $m=unpack(H.$w,$m."\0"x$w),$_=`echo "16do$w 2+4Oi0$d*-^1[d2%Sa
> 2/d0<X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print
> pack('H*',$_)while read(STDIN,$m,($w=2*$d-1+length$n&~1)/2)
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: 2.6.2
> 
> mQCNAy5vBesAAAEEAN8cl6vHXrKZ9lFfZDgfyJRr3HidW77Uio7F25QF6QXca5z/
> AS3ZrWsa0CjF2nwrqmyb1E5no7dFB+70ZfK8233r7ykVkWRojT+0K71lnUZO4cjG
> +d19/ehXkDpkH3iHU7Uyo4ZdXLiI6uoFDS7ilzx8PCKcgvfq7b04kQrCC2kFAAUX
> tAZhdHRpbGGJAJUDBRAur/X7xUpiaI661j0BAbVUA/9RSKN5sOFVB4rjV6+a2aWD
> LjD5g/+eZaB/hI98qlPP+SBwzO3+K7+JWt3Fez0gKVju228ACGkvilg2VkMtQ0zm
> YCexYL0U9StzHt4xEpowpmaWx22jpEvWnI10LZvT/NO3uYg5r/ezVYc7autKvfvI
> rVOo322RkA0HNVV1rqjMGw==
> =UNt4
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> 
> 

Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
**********************************************************
Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!

Brian:

    	There is no way Cohen can send the police to confiscate toad.com, or
    any other computer without some form of criminal complaint --other 
    than by himself as citizen whistle-blower.

	I read the situation as Cohen was planning to attempt to make the
    actions a _criminal_ conspiracy. _If_ Cohen was successful in
    convincing either a state or Federal DA to seek a grand jury
    indictment, then the local police or the federal marshalls could be
    issued a search warrant to collect evidence. 

	I can see Cohen trying to present his case before the Federal 
    bench! In fact, I might be willing to pay admission.  Cohen lives in
    Hudson OH which is also the location of jis private <all.net>. Hudson
    is in Summit County and Akron (the county seat) has a branch court of
    the 4th Federal District (or used to).

	In West Virginia hill towns they teach the 3Rs: reading, 'riting,
    and the route to Akron, which is referred to as the capital of West
    Virignia. I can see the tremendous empathy of these people for Cohen's
    cause. <g>

	As I mention above, getting a DA's attention on questionable
    slander, is a bit far-fetched!  Tactically, I would think Cohen would
    find it necessary to actually win a civil suit which clearly indicated
    there was not only slander, but there was a malicious conspiracy to
    discredit Cohen. 

	Until Cohen actually manages to score a civil victory, I believe
    he is dead in the water. 

	Cohen should probably include me in his action --my idea of 
    discrediting Dr. Fred was putting him in procmailrc. Dr. Frederick B. 
    Cohen became Fred Cohen so part of this thread (missing anything from
    all.net) bled through.  No more, so I will not even see any of the 
    falderol if Fred*Cohen is anywhere in the text.

On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, Brian Davis wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, attila wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 24 Dec 1995, Brian Davis wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sat, 23 Dec 1995, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> > > > > Fred Cohen writes to me in private:
> > > ...
> > > > 
> > > > Let's see.  I guess I would start by having the police confiscate the
> > > > toad.com computers becfause thay are part of a criminal conspiracy to
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > I didn't realize that AI research was that far along.  Can someone point 
> > > me to the specs for the computer that can become a "part of a criminal 
> > > conspiracy"??
> > > 
> > > EBD
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > daamage my reputation.  Criminal because of the recent changes in the
> > > > law that prohibit you from sending me information I don't want to get.
> > > > 
> > >
> > 	the basis of the seizure is for evidence collection.  then they
> >     take their sweet time scrounging the disks for evidence.  If no
> >     evidence is found, they give it back --eventually.  I saw one case go 
> >     by a couple years back where they were trying to make the computer an
> >     accessory to the crime (I dunno, maybe it was supposed to auto-dial
> >     and drop the dime --no that's in 18USC as failure to snitch!)
> 
> Much truth here, but not relevant to Dr. Fred's threat of a civil suit.  
> He can't have his attorneys just call the FBI to pick up toad's computer.
> 
> CoS's seizure of computers, while shameful, was based on a different 
> legal theory than the good Dr. can possibly allege. 
> 
> 
> EBD
> 
> 
> > 	of course, if there are drugs involved, they confiscate it as
> >     spoils of the criminal act and the equipment is impounded and
> >     eventually sold after conviction for the benefit of their slush funds. 
> > 
> > 	I would imagin you have seen plenty of the latter one in the
> >     Federal attorney's office. this also gets into the issues of private
> >     cryptography and that _everybody_ should give up privacy protection,
> >     first amendment rights, etc. so uncle can catch a few dopers, gun 
> >     runners, and other assorted malcreants [sic] --like the difference 
> >     between {mis,mal}feasance: in both cases you get fucked, but 'mal' is
> >     intentional... 
> > 
> >  
> > > Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
> > >
> >     hey, at least you admit you're having a good time!
> > 
> > > **********************************************************
> > > Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!
> > > 
> >     
> > 
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > #!/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
> > $m=unpack(H.$w,$m."\0"x$w),$_=`echo "16do$w 2+4Oi0$d*-^1[d2%Sa
> > 2/d0<X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print
> > pack('H*',$_)while read(STDIN,$m,($w=2*$d-1+length$n&~1)/2)
> > 
> > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> > Version: 2.6.2
> > 
> > mQCNAy5vBesAAAEEAN8cl6vHXrKZ9lFfZDgfyJRr3HidW77Uio7F25QF6QXca5z/
> > AS3ZrWsa0CjF2nwrqmyb1E5no7dFB+70ZfK8233r7ykVkWRojT+0K71lnUZO4cjG
> > +d19/ehXkDpkH3iHU7Uyo4ZdXLiI6uoFDS7ilzx8PCKcgvfq7b04kQrCC2kFAAUX
> > tAZhdHRpbGGJAJUDBRAur/X7xUpiaI661j0BAbVUA/9RSKN5sOFVB4rjV6+a2aWD
> > LjD5g/+eZaB/hI98qlPP+SBwzO3+K7+JWt3Fez0gKVju228ACGkvilg2VkMtQ0zm
> > YCexYL0U9StzHt4xEpowpmaWx22jpEvWnI10LZvT/NO3uYg5r/ezVYc7autKvfvI
> > rVOo322RkA0HNVV1rqjMGw==
> > =UNt4
> > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> > 
> > 
> 
> Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
> **********************************************************
> Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!
> 

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
#!/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
$m=unpack(H.$w,$m."\0"x$w),$_=`echo "16do$w 2+4Oi0$d*-^1[d2%Sa
2/d0<X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print
pack('H*',$_)while read(STDIN,$m,($w=2*$d-1+length$n&~1)/2)

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.2

mQCNAy5vBesAAAEEAN8cl6vHXrKZ9lFfZDgfyJRr3HidW77Uio7F25QF6QXca5z/
AS3ZrWsa0CjF2nwrqmyb1E5no7dFB+70ZfK8233r7ykVkWRojT+0K71lnUZO4cjG
+d19/ehXkDpkH3iHU7Uyo4ZdXLiI6uoFDS7ilzx8PCKcgvfq7b04kQrCC2kFAAUX
tAZhdHRpbGGJAJUDBRAur/X7xUpiaI661j0BAbVUA/9RSKN5sOFVB4rjV6+a2aWD
LjD5g/+eZaB/hI98qlPP+SBwzO3+K7+JWt3Fez0gKVju228ACGkvilg2VkMtQ0zm
YCexYL0U9StzHt4xEpowpmaWx22jpEvWnI10LZvT/NO3uYg5r/ezVYc7autKvfvI
rVOo322RkA0HNVV1rqjMGw==
=UNt4
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----