Re: Escrow expectations

At 09:17 AM 12/8/95 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:

>	"Your honor, we argue that in escrowing his keys with the US
>government, the defendant should have known his communications could
>be listened to, and thus has no expectation of privacy."

If Clipper were mandated you might be able to resist a prosecution for
"failure to file" keys or for double encrypting your transmissions if you
could prove that you were transmitting illegal messages or evidence of a
crime.  Just as those who possess illegal weapons are not required to
register them (self incrimination).  You have to be sure your traffic is
illegal though otherwise no protection.

DCF

"But if indecency is banned from the nets what will happen to the photos of
Clinton's face posted on www.whitehouse.gov?"

Duncan Frissell writes:
 > At 09:17 AM 12/8/95 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
 > 
 > >	"Your honor, we argue that in escrowing his keys with the US
 > >government, the defendant should have known his communications could
 > >be listened to, and thus has no expectation of privacy."
 > 
 > If Clipper were mandated you might be able to resist a prosecution for
 > "failure to file" keys or for double encrypting your transmissions if you
 > could prove that you were transmitting illegal messages or evidence of a
 > crime.  Just as those who possess illegal weapons are not required to
 > register them (self incrimination).  You have to be sure your traffic is
 > illegal though otherwise no protection.

To bring two cypherpunks threads together:

That SHIT should be FUCK no DAMN problem ANAL whatsoever in a few SEX
months.

-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | PGP ok
11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Flushing, NY.  Not just a suburb,
Potsdam, NY 13676 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   | it's a good idea in general.

On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Russell Nelson wrote:

> Duncan Frissell writes:
>  > At 09:17 AM 12/8/95 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote:
>  > 
>  > >	"Your honor, we argue that in escrowing his keys with the US
>  > >government, the defendant should have known his communications could
>  > >be listened to, and thus has no expectation of privacy."
>  > 
>  > If Clipper were mandated you might be able to resist a prosecution for
>  > "failure to file" keys or for double encrypting your transmissions if you
>  > could prove that you were transmitting illegal messages or evidence of a
>  > crime.  Just as those who possess illegal weapons are not required to
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  > register them (self incrimination).  You have to be sure your traffic is
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are mistaken here.  Failure to get a permit before turning a 
semi-auto firearm into a fully-auto machine gun, for example, is illegal 
as is possessing an unregistered machine gun ...

EBD




>  > illegal though otherwise no protection.
> 
> To bring two cypherpunks threads together:
> 
> That SHIT should be FUCK no DAMN problem ANAL whatsoever in a few SEX
> months.
> 
> -russ <nelson@crynwr.com>    http://www.crynwr.com/~nelson
> Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | PGP ok
> 11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 voice | Flushing, NY.  Not just a suburb,
> Potsdam, NY 13676 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX   | it's a good idea in general.
> 

Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
**********************************************************
Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!

Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com> wrote:

> > Duncan Frissell writes:

> >  > If Clipper were mandated you might be able to resist a prosecution for
> >  > "failure to file" keys or for double encrypting your transmissions if you
> >  > could prove that you were transmitting illegal messages or evidence of a
> >  > crime.  Just as those who possess illegal weapons are not required to
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >  > register them (self incrimination).  You have to be sure your traffic is
>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> You are mistaken here.  Failure to get a permit before turning a 
> semi-auto firearm into a fully-auto machine gun, for example, is illegal 
> as is possessing an unregistered machine gun ...

My understanding was that, for example, a convicted felon in posession
of a handgun where handguns must be registered could be charged with
being a convicted felon in posession of a firearm.  He could NOT be
charged with posession of an unregistered handgun, because requiring
him to register, when it is illegal for him to posess, is a violation
of his first amendment rights.

On Sun, 10 Dec 1995, John Lull wrote:

> Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com> wrote:
> 
> > > Duncan Frissell writes:
> 
> > >  > If Clipper were mandated you might be able to resist a prosecution for
> > >  > "failure to file" keys or for double encrypting your transmissions if you
> > >  > could prove that you were transmitting illegal messages or evidence of a
> > >  > crime.  Just as those who possess illegal weapons are not required to
> >              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >  > register them (self incrimination).  You have to be sure your traffic is
> >      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > 
> > You are mistaken here.  Failure to get a permit before turning a 
> > semi-auto firearm into a fully-auto machine gun, for example, is illegal 
> > as is possessing an unregistered machine gun ...
> 
> My understanding was that, for example, a convicted felon in posession
> of a handgun where handguns must be registered could be charged with
> being a convicted felon in posession of a firearm.  He could NOT be
> charged with posession of an unregistered handgun, because requiring
> him to register, when it is illegal for him to posess, is a violation
> of his first amendment rights.


In many/most federal jurisdictions, you are mistaken.  See my previous 
note about the exculpatory no exception.  Of course, he need 
only fill out the form if purchasing from a federally licensed firearms 
dealer, not, say, at a flea market.
 
EBD

Not a lawyer on the Net, although I play one in real life.
**********************************************************
Flame away! I get treated worse in person every day!!

On Sun, 10 Dec 1995 19:25:23 +0000 (GMT), I wrote:

> him to register, when it is illegal for him to posess, is a violation
> of his first amendment rights.
         ^^^^^

I meant FIFTH, not first.  Sorry.