The Big Lie

At 7:59 PM 1/28/96, Mike Duvos wrote:

>I just visited the Ernst Zundel Webcom page, which given the
>number of server overload errors I experienced trying to browse
>it, is now the Numero Uno Web Site on the entire Internet, thanks
>to some anonymous and largely clueless official running
>telecommunications services for the former Third Reich.

Like many born after the Second World War, I took it as a fact that the
so-called Holocaust actually happened. I saw pictures of death camps,
interviews with survivors, etc.

But if it really happened, why are so many countries trying to suppress the
evidence that it was all just a CIA-Mossad plot? It seems more likely that
the pictures were faked, or were pictures taken of dying Germans in Russian
POW camps on the Eastern Front.

If They are trying to suppress discussion, maybe there's something to their
ideas.

If the Germans are suppressing attempts to get at the truth, I suspect the
stories are true that the Holocaust was part of Truman's "Big Lie."

--Tim



[Note: I present this as a line of thinking that is actually often the
result of suppression of views. "If They are suppressing it, maybe there's
some truth to it." Note also that the views of Zundel and other Holocaust
Deniers are not causally related to the deaths of millions of Jews,
gypsies, and others in WW II. The damage, if any, is in the "hurt feelings"
and "insults" felt by survivors and their relatives. The other danger often
cited, that Zundel will recruit a Fourth Reich or somesuch, is no more
likely than that Jerry Falwell will recruit a New Crusade, or that J.
Random Ranter will do the same. In a free and open society, we let people
believe in "wrong ideas" (witness Christianity, Islam, Scientology,
Judaism, and a thousand other cults).]

Boycott espionage-enabled software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1  | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) writes:

 > But if it really happened, why are so many countries trying
 > to suppress the evidence that it was all just a CIA-Mossad
 > plot? It seems more likely that the pictures were faked, or
 > were pictures taken of dying Germans in Russian POW camps on
 > the Eastern Front.

Since "Holocaust" is an Operational Definition referencing Jewish
experience during the Second World War, there is a clearly
tautological aspect to the oft-posed question "Did the Holocaust
happen?", to which the answer is obviously, a priori, and
identically, "Yes", in the sense that Jews did, indeed, live
during the Second World War, and some of them did indeed, like
numerous other minority religous, ethnic, and political groups,
have experiences which would not be described as recreational in
nature.

Armed with a question whose answer is true by construction, it is
not very hard to correctly characterize those arguing that the
answer is "false" as crackpots, and only a tiny leap from there
to characterizing those who ask different and reasonable
questions as having asked the Canonical Question instead and
having also given the wrong answer to it.

It is of course then necessary to censor the ability of the
public to view the original questions, since this would not only
cast aspersions upon ones credibility, but would also require
that they be answered, the avoidance of which was the reason for
the original exercise in misdirection.

While such political tactics work well in a world with a
traditional hierarchical flow of information from the Big Press
to the Little Citizen-Unit, they collapse completely under the
Cooperative Anarchy of the Net, and blow up in the faces of those
who attempt them.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center desparately needs to regroup and try
to understand how the Net works, before applying its traditional
methods of debate and advocacy to an environment where completely
different rules apply.  This is not to deny the Holocaust, or to
say that the SWC doesn't have its heart in the right place.  This
is simply an attempt to spare them any more self-inflicted
wounds.

 > If the Germans are suppressing attempts to get at the
 > truth, I suspect the stories are true that the Holocaust
 > was part of Truman's "Big Lie."

Many people are likely to think this based on the Germans
behavior, and the Germans need to learn that the remedy for Hate
Speech is more speech, especially in an environment as
uncontrollable as the Net.

 > [Note: I present this as a line of thinking that is
 > actually often the result of suppression of views. "If They
 > are suppressing it, maybe there's some truth to it." Note
 > also that the views of Zundel and other Holocaust Deniers
 > are not causally related to the deaths of millions of Jews,
 > gypsies, and others in WW II. The damage, if any, is in the
 > "hurt feelings" and "insults" felt by survivors and their
 > relatives.

It is interesting to note that there is no specific law
prohibiting free speech for Holocaust Agnostics in Germany. The
actual laws under which such cases are prosecuted are libel laws,
which have been liberally interpreted to mean that one may not
"libel" deceased Jews as a class or their memory in the minds of
their surviving relatives.

The notion of libeling a class of deceased persons strikes me as
a dangerous and particularly convoluted legal fiction. (Although
I certainly don't mean any disrespect for the deceased or their
survivors when I say this.)

 > The other danger often cited, that Zundel will recruit a
 > Fourth Reich or somesuch, is no more likely than that Jerry
 > Falwell will recruit a New Crusade, or that J. Random Ranter
 > will do the same. In a free and open society, we let people
 > believe in "wrong ideas" (witness Christianity, Islam,
 > Scientology, Judaism, and a thousand other cults).]

The solution to Mr. Zundel is the same as the solution to
Archemedes (Ne Ludvig) Plutonium.  Allow him complete freedom of
speech to express his theories, debunk him as time permits, and
if all else fails, put him in your killfile.

The chances that Mr. Zundel will organize a Fourth Reich are
about the same as those that Archmedes Plutonium will force us
all to do our mathematics with his N-Adics.  It's not something
I'm going to spend a lot of time worrying about.

Zero crypto relevance...

mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:
> It is interesting to note that there is no specific law
> prohibiting free speech for Holocaust Agnostics in Germany. The
> actual laws under which such cases are prosecuted are libel laws,
> which have been liberally interpreted to mean that one may not
> "libel" deceased Jews as a class or their memory in the minds of
> their surviving relatives.
>
> The notion of libeling a class of deceased persons strikes me as
> a dangerous and particularly convoluted legal fiction. (Although
> I certainly don't mean any disrespect for the deceased or their
> survivors when I say this.)

To me this sounds like a very twisted legal reasoning. If I understood
correctly some other posts in this thread, by saying something like, "the Nazis
invaded Denmark for reasons other than to round up and kill the 3,000 Danish
Jews", this Zendel loser automatically implies that whoever says otherwise is
lying; and that is a libel/slander, and is a criminal (not just civil) offense.

I wonder if it should also be illegal in Germany to doubt the atrocities
perpetrated by various German factions on one another during the 30-Year War
(1618-1648), or during the peasant uprisings/religious wars of 16th century, or
on the Slavs during the conquest of Saxony in 11th century?

They were as brutal as WWII, and most modern Germans are probably the
descendants of the survivors, and neither Catholics nor Protestants like to
admit the nasty things done by their ancestors.

---

Dr. Dimitri Vulis
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

In message <a3ZFiD78w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, 
  Dr. Dimitri Vulis wrote:
> Zero crypto relevance...
> 
> mpd@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes:
> > It is interesting to note that there is no specific law
> > prohibiting free speech for Holocaust Agnostics in Germany. The
> > actual laws under which such cases are prosecuted are libel laws,
> > which have been liberally interpreted to mean that one may not
> > "libel" deceased Jews as a class or their memory in the minds of
> > their surviving relatives.
> >
> > The notion of libeling a class of deceased persons strikes me as
> > a dangerous and particularly convoluted legal fiction. (Although
> > I certainly don't mean any disrespect for the deceased or their
> > survivors when I say this.)
> 
> To me this sounds like a very twisted legal reasoning. If I understood
> correctly some other posts in this thread, by saying something like, "the Naz
> is
> invaded Denmark for reasons other than to round up and kill the 3,000 Danish
> Jews", this Zendel loser automatically implies that whoever says otherwise is
> lying; and that is a libel/slander, and is a criminal (not just civil) offens
> e.

I was under the impression that you couldn't libel/slander a dead
person. Mainly because libel/slander is a offence against reputation
which dead people don't care much for, but also because once you go
against this principle where in hell (no pun intended) do you draw the
line.

Of course my impressions tend to be based around the legal system I've
lived in all my life...

--
Packrat (BSc/BE;COSO;Wombat Admin)
Nihil illegitemi carborvndvm.

Bruce Murphy <packrat@ratbox.rattus.uwa.edu.au> writes:
>
> I was under the impression that you couldn't libel/slander a dead
> person. Mainly because libel/slander is a offence against reputation
> which dead people don't care much for, but also because once you go
> against this principle where in hell (no pun intended) do you draw the
> line.

Where it's convenient to the state. Reportedly in Germany you can easily
slander dead people, their estates, their descendants, and other members
of their ethnic group.

---

Dr. Dimitri Vulis
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

In message <ukugiD96w165w@bwalk.dm.com>, 
  Dr. Dimitri Vulis wrote:
> Bruce Murphy <packrat@ratbox.rattus.uwa.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > I was under the impression that you couldn't libel/slander a dead
> > person. Mainly because libel/slander is a offence against reputation
> > which dead people don't care much for, but also because once you go
> > against this principle where in hell (no pun intended) do you draw the
> > line.
> 
> Where it's convenient to the state. Reportedly in Germany you can easily
> slander dead people, their estates, their descendants, and other members
> of their ethnic group.

Well... how about pets then? Hitler had a pathetic goldfish!

Damn germans. I guess that they really haven't changed a hell of a lot
over the past few decades. No wonder that every other European race
(pretty much) sterotypes them.

Personally I have quite a bit of confidence that my government isn't
going to worry about encryption stuff until technology passes them
by. I am not at all unhappy about this.

--
Packrat (BSc/BE;COSO;Wombat Admin)
Nihil illegitemi carborvndvm.

> Damn germans. I guess that they really haven't changed a hell of a lot
> over the past few decades. No wonder that every other European race
> (pretty much) sterotypes them.

You haven'n been in Germany for a very long time, have you?
... or in Europe at all?

ohuf.

Oliver Huf <ohuf@relay.sedat.de> writes:

> > Damn germans. I guess that they really haven't changed a hell of a lot
> > over the past few decades. No wonder that every other European race
> > (pretty much) sterotypes them.
>
> You haven'n been in Germany for a very long time, have you?
> ... or in Europe at all?

This thread has very little cryptographic relevance and has degenarated
into a full-scale ethnic flamefest.

Neither Germans nor Americans nor any other nation are inherently evil.

There are certain things that German government does which many on this
mailing list find distasteful. There are certain things that the U.S.
government does which many on this mailing list find even more distasteful.

We should seek to help those Germans who seek to circumvent the laws of
their country which we find to be unjust and unfair, just as we would
have helped the "dissidents" in the former Soviet Union or the anti-Nazi
Germans in Nazi Germany.

Disclaimer: my grandmother is reported to be German. :-)

---

Dr. Dimitri Vulis
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- From the node of Timothy C. May:
: 
: Like many born after the Second World War, I took it as a fact that the
: so-called Holocaust actually happened. I saw pictures of death camps,
: interviews with survivors, etc.
: 
: But if it really happened, why are so many countries trying to suppress the
: evidence that it was all just a CIA-Mossad plot? It seems more likely that
: the pictures were faked, or were pictures taken of dying Germans in Russian
: POW camps on the Eastern Front.
: 
: 

I also saw quite a few pictures that were taken by relatives during the 
liberation (or whatever you call it) and the holocaust was very real.
I will say that the number of Poles that were incarcerated was quite
understated.  Maybe Lester Bangs was right when he said that the
Holocaust was just a coverup to hide the fact that Hitler killed 
6 million Jehovah's Witnesses.  All I can say is that I have seen good
proof that we should not trust the whims of any government.  Human
beings with power over other human beings scare me beyond belief.


- -----
Mark Rogaski           100,000 lemmings     rogaski@pobox.com 
aka Doc, wendigo        can't be wrong!     http://www.pobox.com/~rogaski/

VMS is as secure as a poodle encased in a block of lucite 
						... about as useful, too.

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