Crypto anarchist getting through customs

At 7:21 PM 1/15/96, Simon Spero wrote:

>When I was a student and had long hair, I used to always get questioned
>when going throught customs. After graduating, and having normal length
>hair, I had a lot less trouble. Long serving customs officers develop
>models of characteristics that in the past have been indicative of
>smuggling or wrong doing. Given that most points of entry are
>under-staffed, there's not much else they can do.

I was returning from France and Monte Carlo, where I'd given a talk about
crypto anarchy, through U.S. Customs at San Francisco. Having just heard of
Matt Blaze's experiences, I figured I'd be truthful and see what happened.

(I can't recall the exact words, naturally, so this is just a rough
version. Things were uncrowded at the Customs gate, and I was the only one
in his line, in case it matters.)

Young Customs Officer (YCO): "Where are you coming from?"

Me: "Monte Carlo. And France."

YCO: "Business or pleasure?"

Me: "Business."

YCO: "What was the business?"

Me: "I met with cryptographers and bankers to discuss cryptography and
political implications."

YCO: " 'Cryptography'? "  (A look of no comprehension.)

Me: "Yes, cryptography. You know, secret codes, ciphers, stuff like that."

YCO: "Were there any foreigners present?"

Me: "Yes, it was in Monte Carlo. There were some Russians there, and lots
of others."

YCO: [brief pause] "Did you bring anything back with you?"

Me: "No."

YCO: [waved me through]


In my carry-on luggage I had half a dozen magneto-optical disks, carring
about a gigabyte of stuff. (As props to use during my talk on the
France/Monte Carlo side, ironically, to show that borders are fully
transparent.)

By the way, there were no outgoing checks [unlike Matt, I didn't seek out
permission to export anything], of course, and no checks at my entry point
at De Gaulle Airport in Paris. [Though there were lots of cops with machine
guns, and lots of dire warnings that bags left unattended might be
destroyed, a precaution against bombs.] No checks into Monte Carlo, of
course (I lived for a year near Monaco, so I knew this would be the case).

Frequent travellers to Europe will no doubt confirm what I'm saying. I
travelled to dozens of countries in Europe a while back, and never was
checked at any borders, save for a quick glance at my passport.

--Tim May


We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1  | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> 
> Frequent travellers to Europe will no doubt confirm what I'm saying. I
> travelled to dozens of countries in Europe a while back, and never was
> checked at any borders, save for a quick glance at my passport.
> 
> --Tim May

This may, in part, depend on your mode of transport.  Or maybe the phase 
of the moon.

In June of '93, I took a train from Rome to Nice, something which 
had worked nicely for me in the past.  That time we were all 
uncermoniously dumped out at a whistle-stop border checkpoint and forced 
to carry our luggage past some guys in uniforms.  I think some people got 
a quiz, though I did not.  After an hour or two, they let us board a 
*different* train to complete the last little bit of our journey.

That's the only border harassment I've experienced in Western Europe.  
Eastern Europe has been more interesting on occasion.  
 

Brad

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> YCO: " 'Cryptography'? "  (A look of no comprehension.)
> 
> Me: "Yes, cryptography. You know, secret codes, ciphers, stuff like that."
> 
> YCO: "Were there any foreigners present?"
> 
> Me: "Yes, it was in Monte Carlo. There were some Russians there, and lots
> of others."
> 
> YCO: [brief pause] "Did you bring anything back with you?"
> 
> Me: "No."
> 
> YCO: [waved me through]
>
	You were lucky. had the YCO understood the implications of 
    crypto, he probably would not have been so genial.

	San Fransisco is a good entry port for that reason --it does not 
    seem to be a major drug entry point via commercial airlines.  
    Secondly, the four or five times I have gone through there have been 
    hi-bye even though I am flagged --however, carrying a foreign service 
    passport (which has no relation to immunity) requires them to manually 
    enter the number...  end of story in loose ports.

> 
> In my carry-on luggage I had half a dozen magneto-optical disks, carring
> about a gigabyte of stuff. (As props to use during my talk on the
> France/Monte Carlo side, ironically, to show that borders are fully
> transparent.)
> 
	For the record, I have _never_ imported or exported anything 
    relevant as my own courier; there are far too many easy ways...
 
> 
> Frequent travellers to Europe will no doubt confirm what I'm saying. I
> travelled to dozens of countries in Europe a while back, and never was
> checked at any borders, save for a quick glance at my passport.
> 
> --Tim May
> 
	For the most part that is very true.  The only places I ever get 
    hassled is at obscure German-Swiss borders at night (driving). 
    Usually an older officer stuck with nights to encourage resignation
    --breeds a foul temper and absolute lack of humour --not that the
    Swiss ever had one <g) --I can say that with impunity: I am Swiss. 

	Other than bombs, the Europeans are just not cynically paranoid.

> "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
> 
	yup, there's always high bandwidth spread spectrum in a truck.

		attila
__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

My bullshit detector is starting to pin the needle.

US Customs doesn't care about your political status or leanings. 
They want to collect the proper excise and catch contraband.

There are INS people at passport control.   I am skeptical that they 
would detain a US passport holder for 36 hours. I would like to see some 
evidence that this actually happened.

US citizens can't be excluded from the country, nor have their 
citizenship taken away from them.


Alan Horowitz
alanh@norfolk.infi.net

well, Mr. Horrowitz, I once had a strong belief in democracy
    and the U.S. Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights.

****** IMPORTANT, get your BS detector working!

	you'd probably call me a lying asshole if I told you your
    _beloved_ Bubba signed PPD 25 which permits UN control of US
    forces, _in America_!  and allows the UN to bring in UN troops.

	and, your meter will really peg out if I told you the DOD
    gave Navy Seals and Marine Recon units a long questionaire to
    determine their "loyalty" and they even asked "under an order
    to confiscate weapons from US citizens ...would you shoot to 
    kill [US citizens] who refused to surrender their weapons 
    if so ordered by UN officers?
  
	and, you'll scream "liar" if I tell you that the Department
    of the Navy is not subject to the posse comitase act which prevents
    the Army from being used in civilian affairs. Guess where the
    United States Marine Corps, the finest shock troops in history 
    are (125,000 fighting men currently)  --Navy.

	maybe you should review the procedures for the Feds --they
    have 72 hours to charge you or release you  --more if they are
    lucky enough to bag their prey after 4pm Friday --they are not
    even required to give you a phone call until you have been read
    your rights.  And, they don't read you your rights unless they
    charge you.

	second, check just what your rights are in US border check
    points --how about probable cause before they subject you to a
    strip search and body cavity check? how about liability for
    shredding your possessions if they want to be assholes, and 
    still find nothing? (you're real lucky if you get some Polish
    luggage (shopping bags)  how about some help to put your shit 
    back together?  how about a grievance procedure? --that's the 
    big joke.

	it's not INS, they couldn't give a shit about your politics,
    but if you name pops up when they "stripe" your passport, they
    pass that along to the FBI, DEA, and other LEs  

	check out LA next time you go through the Bradley gauntlet. 
    LA will take the time to punch in the numbers on a US FS passport,
    and US DP passports aint worth a shit in the US.  If they get a
    match, there's an army of those Fed blue jackets with the agency
    name on the back in large letters  --they're highly visible.

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote:

> My bullshit detector is starting to pin the needle.
> 
	your option. I'm not proselytizing!

> US Customs doesn't care about your political status or leanings. 
> They want to collect the proper excise and catch contraband.
> 
	what ever you say... but they get extra bonus points for 
    a rather large number of things.

> There are INS people at passport control.   I am skeptical that they 
> would detain a US passport holder for 36 hours. I would like to see some 
> evidence that this actually happened.
>
	well, I'm not passing my jacket --and you cant get it with FOIA

	anyway, it isn't the INS that detains...
 
> US citizens can't be excluded from the country, nor have their 
> citizenship taken away from them.
>
	which rock you been hiding under?
 
> Alan Horowitz
> alanh@norfolk.infi.net
> 
	remember, a conservative is a liberal, 
	who had his ass mugged last night.


__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

I didn't say I like the State. I said that there isn't, relatively 
speaking, much *political* content to the police-state that is the border.

Remember when those Sandanista sympathizers made the news, quite a number 
of years ago, for getting detained /FBI-interogated/harrassed when they 
crossed back into the USA?  It made the news because that sort of thing 
*is out of the ordinary* for the USA.

And, while I will certainly entertain the suggestion that their actions 
had a political underpinning, the Feds didn't lack for allegations of 
violation of United States Statutes to justify the harrasment.

If these  do-gooders had been doing something that comported with the 
sympathys of the (then) Administration, if they were in step with the 
Emperor's current "party line", then any such criminal violations would 
have been ignored. We all know that. So what?  Welcome to realpolitic.


Alan Horowitz
alanh@norfolk.infi.net

The notorious questionaire to the SEALS wasn't an official action. It was 
one lieutenient doing an assignment for a night class.

I never said that the federal government was good, or nice, or useful. 

Alan Horowitz
alanh@norfolk.infi.net

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Alan Horowitz wrote:

> 
> The notorious questionaire to the SEALS wasn't an official action. It was 
> one lieutenient doing an assignment for a night class.
> 
> I never said that the federal government was good, or nice, or useful. 
> 
> Alan Horowitz
> alanh@norfolk.infi.net
> 

	that's the bullshit they would like you to believe.

	in the first place, under military regs, a degree research would 
    be illegal without full permission.  It also was not given to just one
    unit, but to many ==and all identified ones were either SEALS or
    USMC recon and special units --why just he elite and why so many
    groups --all with a blessing...?

	you take your liberal idealism and see how long you have your 
    freedom. your probably one of those who would say "...I have the
    gold so I can buy the gun!" to which I would say, "...ah, but I have 
    the gun, so I will have both your gold and my gun."

	no, I don't follow Bo Geitz, or belong to any of the militias,
    but I expect I am a bit more pragmatic than a liberal.

__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

    To be a ruler of men, you need at least 12 inches....

Looney tune #4535 writes

>	that's the bullshit they would like you to believe.
>
>	in the first place, under military regs, a degree research would 
>    be illegal without full permission.  It also was not given to just one
>    unit, but to many ==and all identified ones were either SEALS or
>    USMC recon and special units --why just he elite and why so many
>    groups --all with a blessing...?

Could you please remove yourself from cypherpunks to a place where conspiracy 
theories are wanted.  This list is for discussion of cryptography and the only 
conspiracy theories we are interested involve the NSA, MI5 or the Stay-Puffed 
Marshmellowman.


There is plenty of material to fuel whatever conspiracy theories you like. 
Please consult Noam Chomsky for details. 


Just please take the gun.nut conversation somewhere else. After allits in your 
own best interests, it doesn't take much to realise that the government is 
monitoring cypherpunks very carefully and that it when they come round 
collecting the guns in October they will know where to look first. So if the 
most important thing in your life is lethal weaponry best not take any risks eh?


	Phill

hallam@w3.org writes:

> >	that's the bullshit they would like you to believe.

> Could you please remove yourself from cypherpunks to a place where conspiracy 
> theories are wanted.

> Just please take the gun.nut conversation somewhere else.

Yes.  Only left-wing, anti-libertarian rants are permitted under the
new list rules.  Contact Phill directly for a permit.

>Yes.  Only left-wing, anti-libertarian rants are permitted under the
>new list rules.  Contact Phill directly for a permit.

Your permit is enclosed in the header of this message.

Glad to be of service.

	Phill

Jeff Barber writes:
> > Just please take the gun.nut conversation somewhere else.
> 
> Yes.  Only left-wing, anti-libertarian rants are permitted under the
> new list rules.  Contact Phill directly for a permit.

I'm as libertarian as they come, but really, random non-crypto talk
that has a home elsewhere doesn't belong here on cypherpunks.

> 	you take your liberal idealism


   Permission to quote this to my friends and colleagues? They'll die 
laughing to think that someone classifies me as a liberal.

So Attila, what exactly is your extent of familiarity with active-duty 
military folk?    You think that some O-4 going to night school has to 
get permission from the Pentagon when choosing topics for a Sociology paper?

Alan Horowitz
alanh@norfolk.infi.net