When they came for the Jews...

*********
Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the
Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal
Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access
providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that
``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' 

But Cooper said the ``unprecedented potential and scope of the Internet''
gives people ``incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
denigrate minorities, promote homophobia and conspire against democracy.'' 

He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including
recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the
Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19.
***********

In reading the above from today's NYT, I was interested to see the expansion
of the protected classes who are not to have unkind things said about them
on the Nets.   Aside from the usual list of suspects, I noted that
*democrats* were also to be protected.  I thought that "conspiring against
democracy" (something I do daily) was classic political speech and and
activity that even the drafters of the American Constitution practiced from
time to time.  I guess I'm going to have to watch my attacks on democracy if
I don't want to get my Net access cut off.

DCF

"I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age,
alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel,
handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era
veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything
else I can think of."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 An entity calling itself Duncan Frissel is alleged to have written:
>
> 
> "I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age,
> alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel,
> handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era
> veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything
> else I can think of."
> 
> 



"Color sex"?   Oh nevermind...



Bryce, Just Another Conspirator Against Democracy

signatures follow


      "To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."  -Tennyson
            <a href="http://www.c2.org/~bryce/Niche.html">

                          bryce@colorado.edu                </a>



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Is there some way I can get a copy of this letter? Is it
directed at specific ISPs or ISPs in general? An open response,
publicized, to this sounds like something I could do. Publicity is
fun.

> 
> *********
> Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the
> Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal
> Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access
> providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that
> ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' 
> 
> But Cooper said the ``unprecedented potential and scope of the Internet''
> gives people ``incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
> denigrate minorities, promote homophobia and conspire against democracy.'' 
> 
> He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including
> recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the
> Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19.
> ***********
> 
> In reading the above from today's NYT, I was interested to see the expansion
> of the protected classes who are not to have unkind things said about them
> on the Nets.   Aside from the usual list of suspects, I noted that
> *democrats* were also to be protected.  I thought that "conspiring against
> democracy" (something I do daily) was classic political speech and and
> activity that even the drafters of the American Constitution practiced from
> time to time.  I guess I'm going to have to watch my attacks on democracy if
> I don't want to get my Net access cut off.
> 
> DCF
> 
> "I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age,
> alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel,
> handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era
> veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything
> else I can think of."
> 
> 


-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-601-9777x3
Community ConneXion				FAX:     510-601-9734
The Internet Privacy Provider			Dialin:  510-658-6376
http://www.c2.org/ (or login as "guest")		sameer@c2.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> > Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the
> > Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal
> > Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access
> > providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that
> > ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.''
> >
> > But Cooper said the ``unprecedented potential and scope of the Internet''
> > gives people ``incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
> > denigrate minorities, promote homophobia and conspire against democracy.''

The SWC has a Web site http://www.wiesenthal.com, but there's no sign of the
letter on it right now. They do have a web-form survey on Hate on the
Internet, which I filled out for kicks. The CyberWatch section of their site
is the sort of place that says (and I quote) "Is there anything that can be
done?". <sigh>

Their "CyberWatch Perspective" http://www.wiesenthal.com/watch/wpers.htm
attacks anonymity on the net in a couple of places. Here are some relevant
excerpts:

- ----------------
"An incident in Texas highlights yet another advantage the information
superhighway gives bigots - anonymity and deniability. Witness the
recent equivalent of a hi-tech hate drive-by in Texas: Someone broke into
the electronic mail account of a professor and fired off a virulent
anti-black and anti-Semitic attack to 20,000 computer users in four states.
The attack was authored by the National Alliance, whose leader simply denied
sending the message. Its source was a convenient "anonymous I.D.""
[...]
"Hateful speech is, in general, "protected speech," but is there any reason
why, at a minimum, a recipient of any unsolicited and threatening message
from the superhighway should not have the right to know instantly the source
of the message?

Right now, the Internet, in effect, provides stealth technology for bigots,
child pornographers and the like. Accountability, not anonymity, should be
the operative principle."
- -----------------

No big surprise to see these folks come out against free speech in a new
medium. Too bad they're utterly blind to the lessons of the history they've
documented so well.

Futplex <futplex@pseudonym.com>

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The Wiesenthal center is very influential in Jewish circles.
Attacking them directly would probably be a bad idea, and create bad
associations for anonymity amongst Jews.  (I'll come back to this.)

	As always, the best answer to bad speech is more speech.  Ken
McVay, and his Nizkor project, (http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) have been
involved in fighting hate speech, holocaust revisionism, and the like
for long time through archiving the big lies that revisionists pump
out, documenting the bogosity of their footnotes, showing their
contradictions, etc.  Pointing out this, and other net resources
fighting anti-semitism is a much cleaner approach than attacking the
Wiesenthal center.

	Someone noted the police stopping skinheads in Oregon-- I'll
point out that there is a substantial difference between talking and
randomly beating the crap out of people.  The later is a fair basis
for action by police, although we may choose to question their
methodology.  There is also a difference between stopping skinheads
and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing
and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more fairly
be asked to bear the consequences.

	Another approach might be to talk about the concept of
identity, and how dangerous mandating identity cards and papers can
be.  Jews in Germany were tracked down via phone records, bank
records, membership lists of organizations (a lesson probably noted by
the NAACP in refusing to give Alabama its membership rolls, leading to
a supreme court case upholding the right of anonymous association.)

	At the last CFP, Hugh Daniels was distributing buttons with a
bar code on the that said things like 'Is your Jew bit set?' and 'Is
your gay bit set?'

	Proposals to require everyone to have ID are a slippery slope
leading to a police state.  Jews of all people should know better.

sameer wrote:
| 
| 
| 	Is there some way I can get a copy of this letter? Is it
| directed at specific ISPs or ISPs in general? An open response,
| publicized, to this sounds like something I could do. Publicity is
| fun.

| > Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the
| > Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal
| > Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access
| > providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that
| > ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Adam Shostack writes:
> There is also a difference between stopping skinheads
> and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing
> and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more fairly
> be asked to bear the consequences.

Sorry, but from where I stand there's nothing "wrong" with wearing clothing,
bearing tattoos, etc., any more than there's anything "wrong" with having a
particular level of skin pigmentation. When you decide that only clothing,
tattoos, etc. that display particular colors, emblems, words, etc. are
"wrong", then you are stifling free expression. 

This is very similar to the absurd flag burning "issue". (I would laugh, but 
both houses of the U.S. Congress came damn close to passing the proposed 
Constitutional amendment just a few weeks ago, although I thought the matter
was long dead.) When they decide that burning a piece of cloth _with a
particular emblem on it_ is "wrong", they rip up the First Amendment all over
again. I happen to think that going around burning pieces of cloth is a bad
idea from an environmental standpoint, but it's not clear that even that
should be illegal, let alone unconstitutional.

Futplex <futplex@pseudonym.com>
"Freedom...oh freedom...that's just some people talking" -Eagles

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On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Futplex wrote:

> Adam Shostack writes:
> > There is also a difference between stopping skinheads
> > and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing
> > and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more fairly
> > be asked to bear the consequences.
> 
> Sorry, but from where I stand there's nothing "wrong" with wearing clothing,
> bearing tattoos, etc., any more than there's anything "wrong" with having a
> particular level of skin pigmentation. When you decide that only clothing,
> tattoos, etc. that display particular colors, emblems, words, etc. are
> "wrong", then you are stifling free expression. 
> 
	guess I dare not to go to Portland....

	age 55, no grey hairs on a full head to past my shoulder blades,
    full reddish brown beard with some white in it past my neck (what 
    there is of it <g>), 300 lb gorilla with tattoo of the "Ace of
    Swords" on left arm, dressed in all black whether t-shirt/jeans
    or hand-tailored suit, and black leather flat rim "assassin's" 
    hat...  often seen arriving on a big bore outlaw chopper. 
    Considered armed and dangerous....

	oh, I almost forgot: with an attitude....


> 
> Futplex <futplex@pseudonym.com>
> "Freedom...oh freedom...that's just some people talking" -Eagles
> 

__________________________________________________________________________
    go not unto usenet for advice, for the inhabitants thereof will say:
      yes, and no, and maybe, and I don't know, and fuck-off.
_________________________________________________________________ attila__

A city in Illinois (I forget the name at the moment) enacted a law 
against clothing color combinations favored by gangs. Ironically the 
local high school colors were included on the list. Things can get real 
scarey real fast. 

Jay Holovacs <holovacs@ios.com>
PGP Key fingerprint =  AC 29 C8 7A E4 2D 07 27  AE CA 99 4A F6 59 87 90 
 (KEY id 1024/80E4AA05) email me for key

On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Futplex wrote:
> Sorry, but from where I stand there's nothing "wrong" with wearing clothing,
> bearing tattoos, etc., any more than there's anything "wrong" with having a
> particular level of skin pigmentation. When you decide that only clothing,
> tattoos, etc. that display particular colors, emblems, words, etc. are
> "wrong", then you are stifling free expression.

sameer wrote:
| 
| 
| 	Is there some way I can get a copy of this letter? Is it
| directed at specific ISPs or ISPs in general? An open response,
| publicized, to this sounds like something I could do. Publicity is
| fun.

| > Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the
| > Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal
| > Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access
| > providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that
| > ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' 

As of the current time, we haven't received this letter (via 
postmaster@umn.edu or root@umn.edu). Anyone know where it might
be coming from, i.e. @wiesenthal.com or something similar?


-- 
Kevin L. Prigge         |"Have you ever gotten tired of hearing those 
UofM Central Computing  | ridiculous AT&T commercials claiming credit 
email: klp@tc.umn.edu   | for things that don't even exist yet? 
010010011101011001100010| You will." -Emmanuel Goldstein

> 
> 	The Wiesenthal center is very influential in Jewish circles.

	That's very unfortunate, considering how fascist they are.

> Attacking them directly would probably be a bad idea, and create bad
> associations for anonymity amongst Jews.  (I'll come back to this.)

	You make very good points though. I'll have to stress the
benefits of not preventing hate speech rather than just saying that
it's impossible to prevent.

-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-601-9777x3
Community ConneXion				FAX:     510-601-9734
The Internet Privacy Provider			Dialin:  510-658-6376
http://www.c2.org/ (or login as "guest")		sameer@c2.org

--Boundary..3937.1071713541.multipart/signed
Content-Type: text/plain
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Adam Shostack <adam@lighthouse.homeport.org> said:

AS> The Wiesenthal center is very influential in Jewish circles.
AS> Attacking them directly would probably be a bad idea, and create bad
AS> associations for anonymity amongst Jews.  (I'll come back to this.)

AS> As always, the best answer to bad speech is more speech.  Ken McVay,
AS> and his Nizkor project, (http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) have been
AS> involved in fighting hate speech, holocaust revisionism, and the
AS> like for long time through archiving the big lies that revisionists
AS> pump out, documenting the bogosity of their footnotes, showing their
AS> contradictions, etc.  Pointing out this, and other net resources
AS> fighting anti-semitism is a much cleaner approach than attacking the
AS> Wiesenthal center.

	Isn't this attacking, or at least opposing, them directly?

AS> Someone noted the police stopping skinheads in Oregon-- I'll point
AS> out that there is a substantial difference between talking and
AS> randomly beating the crap out of people.  The later is a fair basis
AS> for action by police, although we may choose to question their
AS> methodology.  There is also a difference between stopping skinheads
AS> and stopping blacks, in that the skinheads decided to wear clothing
AS> and tattoos that identify them as skinheads, and thus may more
AS> fairly be asked to bear the consequences.

	This is known as the "[S]he asked for it" argument, a widely
discredited defense.  If their _behavior_ doesn't indicate criminal
behavior, and there isn't a report of a crime with suspects meeting
their descriptions, there is no more excuse for hassling them than there
is for hassling blacks, or hispanics, or....  Who knows, they could
actually be a bunch of Marines (depending on the area).

AS> Another approach might be to talk about the concept of identity, and
AS> how dangerous mandating identity cards and papers can be.  Jews in
AS> Germany were tracked down via phone records, bank records,
AS> membership lists of organizations (a lesson probably noted by the
AS> NAACP in refusing to give Alabama its membership rolls, leading to a
AS> supreme court case upholding the right of anonymous association.)

	And more recently used in Texas by the KKK, represented by a
black (given the organization defended, I think that the race of the
attorney is relevant) attorney from the ACLU.  The attorney was
subsequently removed as the counsel for the Texas chapter of the NAACP.

-- 
#include <disclaimer.h>				/* Sten Drescher */
1973 Steelers    About Three Bricks Shy of a Load    1994 Steelers
1974 Steelers         And the Load Filled Up         1995 Steelers?
To get my PGP public key, send me email with your public key and
	Subject: PGP key exchange
Key fingerprint =  90 5F 1D FD A6 7C 84 5E  A9 D3 90 16 B2 44 C4 F3
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> Citing ``the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups on the
> Internet,'' a leading Jewish human rights group [the Simon Wiesenthal
> Center] on Tuesday began sending letters to hundreds of Internet access
> providers and universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that
> ``promote racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence.'' 

This is really unfortunate.

Many well intentioned people often forget that groups like the Nazis did
more than simply bombard the public with hate speech -- they suppressed 
opposing points of view.  The problem isn't that the haters were able to 
speak their minds, the problem was that the reasonable people were unable 
to respond.

Censorship is an essential component of totalitarianism, while free speech
is fundamentally incompatible with it. 

There is a marketplace of ideas, and our goal ought to be to make sure
that marketplace has integrity, that the rules are fair.  Anti-semitic
ideas aren't going to succeed in the marketplace because they're wrong,
which is to say that arguments which try to prove anti-semitic points will
always contain logical and factual errors.

Once you start interferring with the market by restricting what can be
said, you run into at least two important problems.  First of all, you
open yourself up to the possibility that some good ideas will be unable to
emerge from the debate.  The nazis suppressed speech, for example, and 
solid arguments against their positions weren't able to emerge.

The second problem is more subtle, and it happens all the time in this
country:  people lose confidence in the market.  I've spoken with people
who believe, for example, that black people are inherently dumber than
white people.  If you ask these people for proof, they say that it's being
suppressed.  In a sense they're right:  arguments that blacks are dumber
than whites are suppressed, not by law, but informally.  But *proof* isn't
being suppressed, because proof doesn't exist.  The suppression of
arguments gives people an out in their own minds, and it allows them to
cling to some silly notions.  Supression of an argument also ends up
eliminating the rebuttal, and when you're dealing with hate speech the
rebuttal is always more powerful than the argument.

If you can win a fair fight, why do you need to cheat?

If anyone is interested, here is the URL for the Simon Wiesenthal
Center's cyberwatch (dedicated to fighting hatred and bigotry around
the globe):

http://www.wiesenthal.com/watch/index.html


-James

On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including
> recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the
> Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19.

Sarin nerve gas? Can anyone find that URL?

TIA,

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Lucky Green wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> > He cited the posting of instructions for making explosive devices, including
> > recipes for Sarin nerve gas and bombs similar to the one that destroyed the
> > Federal Building in Oklahoma City last April 19.
> 
> Sarin nerve gas? Can anyone find that URL?
> 
> TIA,

You're kidding, right? With all the uncensored spiders out there, anybody
can find anything in a second. Search for "sarin not japan not aum" to cut
down on the noise. Here's two of the top ten from AltaVista.

1. For US Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA)
   recommendations regarding Sarin (um... avoid?), see:

   http://www.skcinc.com/niosh/file_1424.html

2. Sorry, no detailed recipe, and it says "don't try this at home," but there
   is a bibliography, and the Stanford Libraries have four of the journals
   listed. 

    From http://www.xmission.com/~seer/mcw/sarin.html

Sarin is now known as "GB." It has several chemical names:
1-Methylethyl methylphosphonate, Isopropylhydrogen
methylphosphonate or Isopropyl methylphosphonate. Note the
word "isopropyl." One of the key ingredients of the Sarin made by AUM
Shinrikyo is isopropyl alcohol. Altogether there are four ingredients in
Sarin: phosphorus trichloride, sodium fluoride, isopropyl alcohol
and acetonitrile. Its chemical structure is as follows:
(H3C)2CHOPF(O)Me. Sarin is not the type of weapon that can be made in
the home, it can only be manufactured in a laboratory, though very
sophisticated equipment is not needed. It is extremely dangerous to
manufacture and handle.

It's a German invention. Here's a (mostly) German Bibliography.
GMELINS HDB, 1965, P482; PHOSPHOR VERBINDUNGE, 1963, V1, P433;
PHOSPHOR ERBINDUNGE, 1964, V2, P27; 810930, 1959, CHILDS AF;
ARBUSOV A, 1902, P1639; CHEM ZENTR BOOTH HS, 1939, V61, P2927; J AM
CHEM SOC; BRAUER G, 1975, P209; HDB PRAPARATIVEN ANO; BRYANT PJR,
1960, P1553, J CHEM SOC; DEBORST C, 1972, V27, P305, TNO NIEUWS;
FORDMOORE AH, 1951, V31, P33, ORGANIC SYNTHESES; FRANKE S, 1976,
V1, LEHRBUCH MILITARCHEM; FRANKE S, 1976, V2, LEHRBUCH
MILITARCHEM; KUHN SJ, 1962, V40, P1951, CAN J CHEM; LORQUET JC,
1959, V68, P336, B SOC CHIM BELG; SAMMET R, 1983, THESIS ETH ZURICH;
SASS S, 1979, V14, P257, ORG MASS SPECTROM; SCHRADER G, 1963,
ENTWICKLUNG NEUER IN; TAMMELIN LE, 1957, V11, P1340, ACTA CHEM
SCAND; WASER PG, 1983, CHOLINERGE PHARMAKON; WASER PG, 1975,
CHOLINERGIC MECHANIS; WASER PG, 1986, P157, DISCOVERIES PHARM;
WASER PG, 1986, P743, DYNAMICS CHOLINERGIC.

On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> "I favor discrimination on the basis of race, creed, color sex, age,
> alienage, previous condition of servitude, recent interstate travel,
> handicap, sexual or affectional preference, marital status, Vietnam-era
> veteran status (or lack thereof), occupation, economic status, and anything
> else I can think of."
> 
I really wish I had the original newspaper clipping so I correctly quote 
the column, but it went something like this:
Here in Portland, Oregon, we used to have quite a problem with Nazi 
skinheads.  Not that they are not around now, but then they were 
everywhere.  Being that most of the city is white trash, you'd think it 
wouldn't have caused much of a ruckus if they were simply beating up 
minorities.  But its been my personal experience that they would prefer 
beating up "fellow" whites instead.  That, coupled with the murder of 
Saraw, seemed to stir things up against the skinheads.  Anyhow, that's my 
background to it.  The column didn't talk about that.  It was this guy 
writing about the Banai Brith (spelling?) in Los Angeles getting 
critisism about gathering and keeping records on suspected skinheads.  
Turns out they got alot of that stuff from Portland's own Multnomah 
County Sheriff, who releases thier police reports as public information.  
So this reporter decided to get some of these reports, and some of the 
records that the banai brith were keeping, and printed some.  Like I was 
saying, public opinion at the time was way against the skinheads, and I 
was more than a little irritated at the time at them because of the 
roving bands of punks that made life in MY city uncomfortable.  So I read 
through each police report, really eating it up.  "White male, (his name,) 
apprehended for distributing nazi literature."  "White female, (her 
name,) questioned.  Wearing a jacket with a swastika."  Stuff like that.  
Then the reporter lowered the boom.  He asked us in the reading audience 
to substitute "skinhead" and "nazi" with "hippy" or "communist," and see 
how we felt about that.  This was a very unpopular position at the time, 
in a city hell bent on getting rid of these skinheads, but he made a good 
point with me.  

Maybe someone could tell me how I could get a hold of the original.  The 
paper is the Oregonian.  I could probably figure out the reporter's 
name...if I only had a brain.  I'd love to post it.

Again, flames are always welcomed, as I am home sick and could use the abuse.

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