Re: True democracy the electronic way

At 3:03 AM 2/15/96, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

>1. this is an extremely interesting problem in my opinion. the ideal
>form of government has not been achieved in many millenia. could it
>be solved given the full power of the information age, i.e.
...
>if anyone knows of
>a mailing list to discuss this concept of trying to apply technology
>to government, I would be most interested. the closest I can see


You might try the "Cypherwonks" mailing list that L. Detweiler set up a
couple of years ago to explore the very ideas you are supporting here. You
might find you have a lot in common with him.

--Klaus!, a tentacle


Boycott espionage-enabled software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1  | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

>>1. this is an extremely interesting problem in my opinion. the ideal
>>form of government has not been achieved in many millenia. could it
>>be solved given the full power of the information age, i.e.
>...
>>if anyone knows of
>>a mailing list to discuss this concept of trying to apply technology
>>to government, I would be most interested. the closest I can see
>
>
>You might try the "Cypherwonks" mailing list that L. Detweiler set up a
>couple of years ago to explore the very ideas you are supporting here. You
>might find you have a lot in common with him.
>

interesting you should mention that. because of my interests
I've heard various legends that this list (long ago in a galaxy far away)
was sabotaged by piles of trash sent
through anonymous remailers, and the moderator quit instead of put
up with it (not provided the tools to keep out mail from unsubscribers). 
perhaps a little data point about forms of information
technology (and the absence of it) that *doesn't* necessarily lead 
to an improved form of human interaction. 

apparently there is some pretty harsh antagonism towards "electronic
democracy" among the people best suited to experiment with it, i.e.
the pioneers of cyberspace. but hell, alienation and nihilism is
so much more convenient and versatile than bubbly enthusiasm. 
it's a one-size-fits-all philosophy. "screw everyone!!!"  "it'll never
work!!!"  "government == tyranny!!"

something tells me that "electronic democracy" is going to survive
the death of an early mailing list dedicated to its discussion, however.

but thanks very much for the pointer,  Klaus! I'm always impressed with
the helpful spirit of everyone on this list.

(speaking of which I'd be interested in talking to anyone with spare 
resources to start mailing lists.)

--Vlad

"Vladimir Z. Nuri" writes:
> >You might try the "Cypherwonks" mailing list that L. Detweiler set up a
> >couple of years ago to explore the very ideas you are supporting here. You
> >might find you have a lot in common with him.
> 
> interesting you should mention that. because of my interests
> I've heard various legends that this list (long ago in a galaxy far away)
> was sabotaged by piles of trash sent
> through anonymous remailers,

For those not in the know, I will point out for the record that
Vladimir Z. Nuri is actually L. Detweiler and that you are watching a
form of strange masked dance in which everyone pretends that they
don't know who the other person is. We now return you to the surreal
dialog already in progress.

Perry

PM:

>For those not in the know, I will point out for the record that
>Vladimir Z. Nuri is actually L. Detweiler and that you are watching a
>form of strange masked dance in which everyone pretends that they
>don't know who the other person is. We now return you to the surreal
>dialog already in progress.

hmmmmm, sounds like a ridiculous conspiracy theory to me, concocted
mrely to further inflame TCM warefare by inciting both him and
those critical of him. (methinks you have been staring at crypto
code for sockets and slaving over a hot monitor a bit too long.)

note: I have absolutely no interest of playing the puerile cyberspatial
identity games the cypherpunks have come to be famous for.

but thanks for a great laugh (at you, not with you).

(but, shall I remind you, all these conspiracy theories you raise
are WHOLLY IRRELEVANT to the cypherpunks list.)

say PM, you are into capitalism and the free market economy as
transcendent and sacred and all that-- what would you
charge to not post to this list for say several months? a little
vacation for someone clearly overworked and fatigued? I'd be
willing to take up a collection. you might be surprised how much
people donate ... there even maybe one or two "wealthy contributors"
who really up the ante. don't take it personally-- I really am
concerned for your welfare and serenity of mind, something that seems
to endlessly elude you as much as the perfectly relevant cypherpunk post..

p.s. a little note to everyone here who doesn't "get it"-- a 
guerilla measures his effectiveness by the presence of *any* response.

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                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, L. Det^H^H^H^H^H^HVladimir Z. Nuri wrote:

> p.s. a little note to everyone here who doesn't "get it"-- a 
> guerilla measures his effectiveness by the presence of *any* response.

Only stupid guerillas who have forgotten why they got in the biz.


 S a n d y

P.S.	Here we have a perfect example of a win-win-win
	situation.  Larry gives himself an attaboy for
	getting my response ("*any* response").  I get
	to poke fun at his rationalization.  The list
	gets another data point on this fruitcake.

P.P.S.	Well, almost perfect.  My friend, Perry, for
	whom I have a great deal of respect will not
	appreciate the noise.  On this point, I have
	agreed to disagree with Perry.  I would still
	gladly take 100 more Perrygrams in exchange 
	for yet another Detweiler rant.  Perry makes
	a great deal of sense.  LD is a loon (oh yeah,
	and a great guerilla warrior...yeah right).
 
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