Re: FCC & Internet phones

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t byfield wrote:
[..]
>  doubt the situation for bureaucratic rule-mongering would be much
>  different. The WP article said that has ACTA has "asked the [FCC] to stop
>  this kind of communications and study how to regulate it," probably--and
>  not surprisingly --in that order.

I noticed they complainted about IPhone "giving away our product for
free" or something like that. Bad implications. Imagine MS going after
the FreeDOS people, or Novel or AT&T or whoever owns Unix now going after
Linux or the FSF/GNU...

[..]
>         Q: Is it practically possible to find netphone traffic on a
> generic network at any level above the source and target addresses?

Good question.
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Mutant Rob wrote:
| >         Q: Is it practically possible to find netphone traffic on a
| > generic network at any level above the source and target addresses?
| 
| Good question.

Presumably, the signal has a number of charictaristics.  Some of them
have a central switchboard, where preople go to set up calls.  Most
presumably use a mix of a UDP data connection and tcp for control
functions.  They all consist of high volume, long duration connections
(or data flows in the case of UDP.)  Many probably use a standardized
destination port.  They might use the urgent pointer to force data up
the stack quickly.

	In short, yes the data streams can be easily found, if one can
tap and grep a T3 in real time.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

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>From: Adam Shostack <adam@lighthouse.homeport.org>
>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 00:07:20 -0500 (EST)

>Presumably, the signal has a number of charictaristics.  Some of them
>have a central switchboard, where preople go to set up calls.

Hum, I would set-up the system to `dial direct'.  Maybe I could
give you this one, for systems that allow random-chat modes.

>Most
>presumably use a mix of a UDP data connection and tcp for control
>functions.

OK, everything after the IP header is encrypted.  I don't even know
which protocol is in use.

>They all consist of high volume, long duration connections
>(or data flows in the case of UDP.)  Many probably use a standardized
>destination port.

OK, everything after the IP header is encrypted.  I don't know
which port is in use.

>They might use the urgent pointer to force data up
>the stack quickly.

OK, everything after the IP header is encrypted.  I don't know
which protocol options are in use.

>	In short, yes the data streams can be easily found, if one can
>tap and grep a T3 in real time.

In short, assuming IPSEC, the data stream cannot be easily found.
Slightly different assumptions led to a radically different outcome.

Regards,
Loren
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Loren James Rittle wrote:

| >Most
| >presumably use a mix of a UDP data connection and tcp for control
| >functions.
| 
| OK, everything after the IP header is encrypted.  I don't even know
| which protocol is in use.

	Are you willing to play Mallet?  Drop IP packets, and look for
duplicates.  Those are TCP.  (IPSEC might handle this, but I bet there
will be broken implementations that save time by resending.)

| >They all consist of high volume, long duration connections
| >(or data flows in the case of UDP.)  Many probably use a standardized
| >destination port.
| 
| OK, everything after the IP header is encrypted.  I don't know
| which port is in use.

	Which doesn't change the nature of the data, which is:

	Alice sends long (3-60 second) heavy flows to Bob.
	Alice's flow stops, Bobs picks up.
	repeat.

| In short, assuming IPSEC, the data stream cannot be easily found.
| Slightly different assumptions led to a radically different outcome.

	First, assume a can opener.  :)

	Actually, I'll bet you I can pick out your encrypted data for
the common case, which will continue to be a modem, which can't handle
heavy back traffic flows for the sake of hiding who is speaking.

Adam


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

The real complaint of the telephone companies seems to be not that the 
calls are free, but that the 'whatevers' are not subject to the same 
tariff regulation that they are. I'm sure it's because they want to be 
able to lower their fees to the same level to compete. Quit sure. 

Simon 
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