Re: code vs cypher

** Reply to note from hochiminh@alpha.c2.org 04/26/96  8:31pm -0700 
  
= Perry E. Metzger" <perry@piermont.com> writes: 
=  
= pm> tm> Timothy C. May writes: 
= pm> tm>  Well, I was not invited to join the elite and secret  
= pm> tm>  coderpunks list, 
=
        well, apparently that was not a problem.
  
= pm> It is neither elite nor secret. It is fairly high signal to  
= pm> noise. 
= pm> I think only about one in every fifty or so cypherpunks 
= pm> messages has any content at all worth mentioning. 
=  
= Agreed!  I wasn't "invited".  I simply requested access and 
= was quickly welcomed to the list. 
=  
        yes, and that was the intent.

	I do not think the intent of those of us who formed 
   Coderpunks "conspired to form an elitest group."  The basic problem 
   was simple --even code topics were politicized in cypherpunks which 
   resulted in scores and days of "re: " messages until someone finally 
   prefaced it with [NOISE], or changed the subject.
 
= pm> tm> but I still have some thoughts on coding and,  
= pm> tm> especially, on the opportunities offered by Java.  
= pm> tm> Sorry if this interferes with discussions of Rabbi  
= pm> tm> Heir and Morris Dees. 
=  
= pm> You have no right to grumble about the situation here. 
= pm> It is exactly what you wanted. Here you were, a person 
= pm> of some personal gravitas and moral authority, and you  
= pm> put your stamp on the "post whatever you like; don't let  
= pm> the grumbling censors stop you". Well, as you sow, so 
= pm> shall you reap. Its your fault, more than anyone else's. 
=  
= TC May was not the first person to substantialy digress from 
= chartered topics but he certainly "ran with the ball" when he 
= got his chance to expose his ignorance and intolerance of 
= other races and religions (the cypher-relevance or "charter 
= topicality of which always escaped me).  I was discouraged 
= by the encouragement given to the murder advocating moron, 
= Jim Bell to post his insance littany. 
=  
        as to jim bell, does this imply you believe in censorship?

        I think you are mistaken with your implication that tcmay is a 
   racist. Bigotry, etc. is usually created in the mind of a reader who
   jumps to conclusions.  I am somewhat older than tim, and I find the
   politically correct revisionism even more humourous (and very
   intellectually cheap):  vertically challenged, horizontally
   challenged, mobility challenged, mentally challenged, or whatever    
   the current fads are.

        and, to top it off, I am disgusted with the high and mighty 
   moralism of the revisionists. I fully agree with EEO, but I 
   thoroughly disagree with quotas and preferences.  I have more than 
   an even tendency to call a spade a spade, and I may live where guns   
   tend to outnumber our many children, but the only way a stranger can 
   be bounced from my table is to interfer with grace --and there are 
   some, as they are attending for the extra plate which is always set, 
   who would protest that my prayer offends them. does anybody still 
   have manners?

        tim finds humour in many things --and, he has the courage to
   challenge the politically correct revisonism which is being shoved
   down our throats by a bigger and bigger, but certainly not better,
   creeping vine of vipers we call our government, which is nothing 
   more than a ship of fools.

= pm> If Cypherpunks has become a cesspit, well, its YOUR cesspit,  
= pm> Tim. Its the list you always strove to create, but it appears  
= pm> that you now don't like the smell of your own wallow. Well,  
= pm> sorry. Deal with it. 
=  
= Well put, Perry! 

        well, the premise may be correct on what cypherpunks drifts 
   into with the endless political back and forth --the open forum;  
   however, the creation of the cesspit is not one party's fault  --we 
   _all_ have contributed to the problem --which is compounded by 
   direct, on-line connections.

        so, how about a little moderation in all things?




--
Overseeing first-rate programmers is a managerial challenge roughly comparable to herding cats.

cc: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@toad.com>

On Sun, 28 Apr 1996, attila wrote:

> ** Reply to note from hochiminh@alpha.c2.org 04/26/96  8:31pm -0700
> 
> = TC May was not the first person to substantialy digress from
> = chartered topics but he certainly "ran with the ball" when he
> = got his chance to expose his ignorance and intolerance of
> = other races and religions (the cypher-relevance or "charter
> = topicality of which always escaped me).  I was discouraged
> = by the encouragement given to the murder advocating moron,
> = Jim Bell to post his insance littany.
> =
>         as to jim bell, does this imply you believe in censorship?

No, it simply means he thinks that Bell is a loon. I thought that for a
while, too, but now I think he's simply politically immature, and into
novelty acts. I am also pleased to see Bell seem to learn and mature over
the last few months, as I know I have. Nobody is irredeemable. I have
never killfiled anyone, though I've ignored people from time to time as a
way of controllin gmy blood pressure.

Detweiler was right when he talked about the thin skins and huge egos
here. Why cry "censor" when somebody simply tells you to shut up? It's
called social pressure, and it's a good thing. You may respond to social
pressure however you wish. 

>         I think you are mistaken with your implication that tcmay is a
>    racist. Bigotry, etc. is usually created in the mind of a reader who
>    jumps to conclusions.

Likewise "PC." He may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are
mistaken in your implication that hochiminh means to imply that TC May is
a racist. "Ignorance and intolerance" are different animals entirely, and
speaking on a purely analytical rather than moral level, I believe these
terms are accurately applied to Tim's statements, especially about
non-English speakers and nuking the Japs.  But I recognize Tim's good
humor (in all three meanings), and think he's a great guy, as are most of
the inmates in this particular asylum. 

My parents and a couple of friends at work are right-wing fundamentalist
loons, and a couple of friends from school are left-wing multiculturalist
loons. From this vantage point, I learn a lot. It's really funny comparing
the presentation of left-wingers in right-wing propaganda to the
presentation of right-wingers in left-wing propaganda. It seems that
cypherpunks gets the worst extremes of both. Sometimes I play along (too
often, probably, so I'm learning how to resist being trolled -- Michael
Loomis's laughable "Rich Graves, Holocaust fetishist" was a good test),
sometimes I just sit back and watch.

>    I am somewhat older than tim, and I find the
>    politically correct revisionism even more humourous (and very
>    intellectually cheap):  vertically challenged, horizontally
>    challenged, mobility challenged, mentally challenged, or whatever
>    the current fads are.

You will see none of these terms anywhere but in failed trial balloons and
parodies of the supposedly politically correct, of course. It's really
amazing how a myth can take on a life of its own. 

The left has the same kind of ludicrous misconceptions about the religious
right. I'll tell my parents some of the things my leftist friends have
been told about some of the organizations my parents belong to, and they
say, huh? Tell a feminist what Pat Robertson says about feminists, and she
says, huh?

>    thoroughly disagree with quotas and preferences.  I have more than
>    an even tendency to call a spade a spade, and I may live where guns
>    tend to outnumber our many children, but the only way a stranger can
>    be bounced from my table is to interfer with grace --and there are
>    some, as they are attending for the extra plate which is always set,
>    who would protest that my prayer offends them. does anybody still
>    have manners?

I once met a guy in Hollister who did.

I still resent being packed off to church, and I certainly oppose state-
sponsored school prayer; but anyone who goes out of their way to ridicule
someone else's beliefs, or who intentionally disrupts someone else's
worship, is an asshole, IMHO.

>         tim finds humour in many things --and, he has the courage to
>    challenge the politically correct revisonism which is being shoved
>    down our throats by a bigger and bigger, but certainly not better,
>    creeping vine of vipers we call our government, which is nothing
>    more than a ship of fools.

I would agree with this wholeheartedly if you turned down the volume about
80%. I hardly think it takes that much courage to disagree with PC
excesses, especially the ones that don't exist, like this "vertically
challenged" bullshit. It certainly doesn't take much courage on the
cypherpunks list.

Admitting that you pray -- now, that takes courage, well, in polite
circles in California it does.

>         well, the premise may be correct on what cypherpunks drifts
>    into with the endless political back and forth --the open forum;
>    however, the creation of the cesspit is not one party's fault  --we
>    _all_ have contributed to the problem --which is compounded by
>    direct, on-line connections.
> 
>         so, how about a little moderation in all things?

I'm all for that. Anyone for a little croquet?

-rich