Re: Nazis on the Net

E. ALLEN SMITH writes:

| (one reason for Hiroshima and Nagasaki being right
| was the Japanese alliance with Germany)

Was Dresden also right? (more died than at Hiroshima)  The firebombing
of Tokyo? (10% died in one raid).  Stalins execution of his own people?
Look at facts, not propoganda, before coming to such conclusions.
The conventions of war (namely the aim of keeping civilians out of it,
along with good treatment of prisoners) evolved over many centuries,
but then come the Brits and the Yanks to destroy it all with their
indiscriminate bombing of civilians, using the "they can stop the
torture simply by surrendering," and "those bombs saved countless
[American/British] lives!" excuses, and directing attention away from
their own attrocities by spreading propoganda such as soap made from
Jews.  Then to direct attention away from themselves even further, the
victors judge the defeated at Nuremburg for "war crimes," when the
accusors themselves were guilty of terror bombing, the worst war crime
of them all.

| and the Holocaust (people who claim
| it didn't happen are calling my paternal grandfather a liar).

Does anybody really claim it did not happen?  I doubt it.
I assert that those who express doubt over details of the current
story (such as the numbers that died in the camps, the existence of
gas chambers, or whether Hitler gave an order to systematically kill
Jews) are referred to by the media as saying that the Holocaust didn't
happen, but that is *not* what they are saying.  With regard to your
grandfather being liar, that is hard to say without knowing precisly
he has said, but if he states that, eg, Dachau was a terrible place,
riddled with disease and starvation and terrible conditions, and
hundreds of thousands of people died, then who would disagree with him?
If on the other hand he asserts that he saw gassed Jews at Dachau,
then he is mistaken (although not necessarally a liar.)

---
The Nuremberg Trials...had been popular throughout the world and
particularly in the United States.  Equally popular was the sentence
already announced by the high tribunal: death.  But what kind of trial was
this?  ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given political
promises subject to broad interpretation.  It was not a list of pleasing
platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.  It was
the foundation of the American system of law and justice and [Robert Taft]
was repelled by the picture of his country discarding those Constitutional
precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.
                U.S. President, John F. Kennedy

Sorry about spewing this to the List, but nobody@replay.com wouldnot get 
it back to him.

On Tue, 23 Apr 1996, Anonymous wrote:
> E. ALLEN SMITH writes:
> | (one reason for Hiroshima and Nagasaki being right
> | was the Japanese alliance with Germany)
> Was Dresden also right? (more died than at Hiroshima)  The firebombing

	Yes. War, especially in the modern era requires a large 
industrial base to maintain (well, non-guerilla operations anyway) 

> of Tokyo? (10% died in one raid).  Stalins execution of his own people?

	Yes, as above.               To accomplish his goals, yes. IMO, no. 

> Look at facts, not propoganda, before coming to such conclusions.
> The conventions of war (namely the aim of keeping civilians out of it,
> along with good treatment of prisoners) evolved over many centuries,

	Centuries? Maybe 3 of them, the 1600's, 1700's and 1800's, more 
like never.

> but then come the Brits and the Yanks to destroy it all with their
> indiscriminate bombing of civilians, using the "they can stop the
> torture simply by surrendering," and "those bombs saved countless

	There has been a long history of taking the war to the civilians. 
Salting crop land, poisoning wells, burning cities--long before Sherman 
marched on Atlanta civilians were targets. The Aristocracy didn't 
approve publically, but what does a blockade accomplish if not to deprive 
civilians of certain things? Yes, it also keeps it out of the hands of 
the Military, but it also affects non-military. 

> [American/British] lives!" excuses, and directing attention away from
> their own attrocities by spreading propoganda such as soap made from
> Jews.  Then to direct attention away from themselves even further, the
> victors judge the defeated at Nuremburg for "war crimes," when the
> accusors themselves were guilty of terror bombing, the worst war crime
> of them all.

	War is a most nasty thing, and often fought by people who are at 
very impressionable age (young men). Watching your friends and buddies 
die is a tough thing for most, as is killing other people. For most 
people killing is not something to be done lightly, and it is necessary 
to work them into a state were killing is possible. This state also tends 
to make certain actions seem like a good idea. 

	As to the Strategic decesions like the bombing of Dresden and the 
Nuking of Japan, well, when is the last time a Political leader (and High 
Ranking Generals ARE Political Leaders) actually stopped to consider the 
lives or feelings of people that aren't going to vote for hir?

> | and the Holocaust (people who claim
> | it didn't happen are calling my paternal grandfather a liar).
> 
> Does anybody really claim it did not happen?  I doubt it.
> I assert that those who express doubt over details of the current
> story (such as the numbers that died in the camps, the existence of
> gas chambers, or whether Hitler gave an order to systematically kill
> Jews) are referred to by the media as saying that the Holocaust didn't

	I doubt Hitler explicitly said "Kill all the jews for me would 
you Gobby?" but hey, the guy was the ABSOLUTE RULER, he made his desires 
known, and things happened. 

> happen, but that is *not* what they are saying.  With regard to your
> hundreds of thousands of people died, then who would disagree with him?
> If on the other hand he asserts that he saw gassed Jews at Dachau,
> then he is mistaken (although not necessarally a liar.)

	I don't know enough WWII history to know how the Nazis were 
attempting to solve the "Jewish Problem" at Dachau, but I hear that 
Belson was a Gas <sorry>

> The Nuremberg Trials...had been popular throughout the world and
> particularly in the United States.  Equally popular was the sentence
> already announced by the high tribunal: death.  But what kind of trial was
> this?  ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given political
> promises subject to broad interpretation.  It was not a list of pleasing
> platitudes to be set lightly aside when expediency required it.  It was
> the foundation of the American system of law and justice and [Robert Taft]
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> was repelled by the picture of his country discarding those Constitutional
> precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy.

	I wasn't aware that the US Constitution could be applied outside 
the US. 

 	While I understand why you use a remailer, I wish you'd post some 
address that I could send mail to rather than cluttering up the list. 



Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com (prefered)
snow@crash.suba.com

On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Snow wrote:

> Sorry about spewing this to the List, but nobody@replay.com would not get
> it back to him.

I'm glad *somebody* realized that. I believe there have been at least a
half dozen messages Cc'd to nobody in the last couple days. 

[everything of "substance" deleted]

>         While I understand why you use a remailer, I wish you'd post some
> address that I could send mail to rather than cluttering up the list.

Based on other discussions we've had, I believe I've sent Nobody the FAQ
for the alpha.c2.org remailer. Another, minimum alternative would be to
post anonymous messages with a PGP signature. This would at least answer
the questions of whether the Mr. Nobody that posted the Iron Mountain
hoax is the same Mr. Nobody who spews about Dresden. 

If Nobody needs help getting an alpha.c2.org account to work, and he
doesn't trust anybody here, then I recommend whitewolf@alpha.c2.org, an
avowed National Socialist who 1) will not betray Nobody's trust and 2) is
not subject to surveilance, because all messages to him will arrive
PGP-encrypted, to be read offline.

Another Nazi who seems to know a lot about how alpha.c2.org works, because
he traced my friend Erin's nym back with a traffic-analysis spam, is
ralphj@eskimo.com. I would recommend "Dave Harmon," but he had his netcom
account yanked because he kept forging cancels for my and others' Usenet
posts, among other things I can't talk about. I believe the same person
can be reached through the penet.fi pseudonym "Skipper's Hammer," though. 

Hope this helps. At least with a stable nym, we'd be able to flame you for
off-topic posts.

-rich