"Fascism is corporatism"

At 6:18 PM 6/6/96, Rich Graves wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Bruce Baugh, who usually knows better, wrote:
>
>> Fascism has no intrinsic link to genocide. It is a theory of economics,
>> basically, in which the state has ultimate authority over production and
>> distribution without (as in socialism) actually _owning_ the means of
>> production or distribution. This is generally accomplished through
>> cartelization, the creatin of industry-wide councils in which the
>> representatives of the most powerful firms set policy in conjunction with
>> the representatives of the government.
...
>Yes, I'm afraid these ahistorical myths are widespread. What _do_ they teach
>in these schools?
>
>Pick up anything by Renzo De Felice to gain a basic historical understanding
>of what fascism was about, from someone who was sympathetic to them.

Rich, I don't think it nearly so clear as you are claiming. The definition
of fascism, that is. Without resorting to the usual ploy of quoting
Webster's (a ploy I usually am not impressed by), let me cite an
"anti-fascist" radio personality, Dave Emory, who I have been listening to
nearly every week for several years.

Dave is undeniably anti-fascist, an unusual mixture of left-leaning views
and National Rifle Association sympathies, and he often quotes Mussolini's
famous "Fascism is corporatism" line. That is, a view more similar to Bruce
Baugh's point that fascism is primarily an economic theory, about the
organization and ownership of production systems, than about hatred of any
particular ethnic group.

It is certainly true that Italian and German fascism (and the important
variant of "national socialism") become intertwined with certain forms of
racism, with which we are all familiar, but I don't think Bruce is at all
wrong in his definition of fascism. That Hitler and his group combined
fascist economic theories with occultist views of racial superiority does
not mean the two viewpoints are identical.

("Fascism is corporatism" is of course not an overall indictment of all
corporations. "Corporatism" is basically a view that government should
identify key industries and corporations and then pick the winners and
support them while suppressing their competitors. This oversimplifies what
Mussolini, Emory, myself, etc. mean by "corporatism," but I hope this gives
at least a glimpse. And we could get off into discussions of "state
capitalism" and how the Soviet and Chinese forms of government were
essentially examples of "state capitalism," but this would be a long and
involved debate.)


>I'd also recommend a biography of the very influential and gifted American
>modernist poet Ezra Pound, who led the Italian fascist propaganda effort
>from 1941 to 1943 and spent six months in an American POW camp, followed by
>some time in mental hospitals as his rants against jewish conspiracies under
>every bed became increasingly incoherent, for his trouble. Like Orwell's
>very complicated views towards socialism and Stalinism (see Homage to
>Catalonia), e. e. cummings' anti-government pacifism, Whitman's queerness,
>and Byron's essential kookiness, this is something your high school english
>teacher probably failed to mention.

My high school teachers failed to mention much of anything, but this was
hardly surprising to me--I never expected them to. Fortunately, I knew how
to read, and so I learned all of these things. (Except for Pound, whom I
didn't encounter until my first year in college.)

--Tim May

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On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:

> At 6:18 PM 6/6/96, Rich Graves wrote:
> >On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Bruce Baugh, who usually knows better, wrote:
> >
> >> Fascism has no intrinsic link to genocide. It is a theory of economics,
> >> basically, in which the state has ultimate authority over production and
> >> distribution without (as in socialism) actually _owning_ the means of
> ...
> >Yes, I'm afraid these ahistorical myths are widespread. What _do_ they teach
> >in these schools?
> >
> >Pick up anything by Renzo De Felice to gain a basic historical understanding
> >of what fascism was about, from someone who was sympathetic to them.
> 
> Rich, I don't think it nearly so clear as you are claiming. The definition
> of fascism, that is. Without resorting to the usual ploy of quoting
> Webster's (a ploy I usually am not impressed by), let me cite an

Actually, perhaps you *should* check Webster's... you forget that I'm a
Certified Political Scientist. The etymology of fascism is particularly on
point. Historically, it refers to the building of a military vanguard as an
outgrowth of risorgimento, Italy's process of becoming a independent,
unified [fucking] state rather than a bunch of weak city-states, which were
often dominated by French, Prussian, or Austria-Hungarian interests.

In an interesting turn from the theme of this list, Italians from the 1870's
through Mussolini saw a strong, centralized state as the best way to be free
from tyranny and government theft. I'm not much of an historian of Italy,
though, so I won't pursue this point. Besides, it came from a peculiar set
of historical circumstances that CLEARLY do not apply to the US today. 

> "anti-fascist" radio personality, Dave Emory, who I have been listening to
> nearly every week for several years.
> 
> Dave is undeniably anti-fascist, an unusual mixture of left-leaning views
> and National Rifle Association sympathies, and he often quotes Mussolini's
> famous "Fascism is corporatism" line. That is, a view more similar to Bruce

Sounds like my kind of guy. I tend not to be much impressed by radio
personalities, but I may look him up.

"What is fascism" could be batted about forever; I don't think it's much
worth talking about, especially out of historical context. Mussolini started
as a Machiavellian who had not read Machiavelli. Early fascism, and the
etymology of fascism, was a nationalistic, militaristic struggle for power.
Once they got in power, then they started developing an economic ideology.
That's how it works with just about every "political theory"... with the
exceptions of Marxism, libertarianism, and religious fundamentalism,
perhaps.

> Baugh's point that fascism is primarily an economic theory, about the
> organization and ownership of production systems, than about hatred of any
> particular ethnic group.

Of "particular" ethnic groups, probably no. Ezra Pound's antisemitism was
actually pretty unusual. But fascism's essence is rabid, disciplined
nationalism of the militaristic kind. Not really xenophobic and explicitly
genocidal like "National Socialism," which isn't descriptive but was just a
name/party that Hitler was able to hijack to put his extended rant Mein
Kampf into practice, but definitely conscious of the "national character" to
the exclusion of any other. 

> ("Fascism is corporatism" is of course not an overall indictment of all
> corporations. "Corporatism" is basically a view that government should
> identify key industries and corporations and then pick the winners and
> support them while suppressing their competitors. This oversimplifies what
> Mussolini, Emory, myself, etc. mean by "corporatism," but I hope this gives
> at least a glimpse.

That's one glimpse, but I think it's worthwile clarifying that corporatism
isn't about corporations. It's organizing societal groups into officially
recognized corps. Corporatism defines people by their profession, to the
exclusion of any other ties that bind (religion, family, hobbies, political
views, race -- cuz they're all assumed to be of the same "national
character" anyway) and all transactions among the various corps is mediated
by the government. An excellent example of corporatism is Mexico's PRI
(Institutional Revolutionary Party), which is essentially to say the Mexican
government, which is functionally divided into units such as the CTM
(Confederation of Mexican Workers, an umbrella for legally sanctioned trade
unions).

-rich