Re: fbi botches intel "ecspionage" case

At 7:25 PM 6/29/96, Larry Detweiler wrote:

>we already have a very good example where this has
>backfired. I was watching Nightline on Tues night or
>so in which there was info about how the FBI helped
>get an informant into Intel in a *very* sensitive
>position, where he was able to film the pentium chip
>plans. he said he sold them, as I recall,
>to iraq, syria, china, etc.

I didn't see this particular "Nightline," so I can't be certain this is the
same case I have been casually following for a couple of years. However, it
sounds like the case of the guy who spent a year at Intel, stole some
design tapes, went to work for AMD, offered them to AMD, had AMD refuse him
and report his offer to Intel (the chip companies are very cooperative in
these matters), and then proceeded on a bizarre course of offering the
tapes to various foreign nations.

A comedy of sorts, and his "damage" was essentially meaningless.

I don't recall _anything_ about him being planted by the FBI within Intel,
nor can I imagine any circumstances in which the FBI would try this. So
maybe I'm thinking of a different story.

>solve the problem. there was much lamentation over the
>fact the criminal in question only got about 33 months
>of prison time or something.
>
>the FBI emerged with great egg on their face. I would
>say if anyone wants to ridicule them for getting into
>covering "ecspionage" cases, this is a prime candidate
>case. is this what they are aiming for? heh, heh.

Well, the "33 months" sounds like the story I remember. Bear in mind that
the tapes he took were essentially useless. A comedy, as I said.

(He was down in Brazil, living with his parents, sending out press releases
on how he had sold the tapes to Cuba and other such countries. He
voluntarily returned to the U.S. to face charges, so it sure looks like he
wanted to get caught....a psychological case more than a national security
case.)

>somehow we have missed a good public debate about
>ecspionage in the country. there were a few NYT
>editorials, but it is clearly being used as a very
>major aspect of promoting the new post-cold-war spy
>and intelligence strategy without almost any notice
>by major analyists.

Larry, you must not have been subscribed during the months when we debated
this issue many times. There have also been numerous mentions of this since
at least 1990, when I recall discussions of a change in mission for the
NSA.


>2. we have a tradition of separation of church and state in
>this country, and also separation of the public government
>and private industry. suddenly we have the FBI saying they
>want to infiltrate companies to deal with economic espionage.
>well, these companies have their own policy, and what do
>they gain by having a government agency working inside them?
>in the above case I note, it led to exactly the *opposite*
>of what was intended: the theft of *highly*sensitive* plans
>by an FBI mole.

In the case I described, involving Intel and Pentium plans and a recent
prison sentence, this was not the case. The FBI did not plant the thief.


>if someone else can give more info on this case (apparently
>a book is coming out about it or something) including the
>guy's name, I'd appreciate it, I didn't take any notes so
>this is a bit fuzzy.

I'm sure an Alta Vista search would turn up this story. I don't plan to do
it, though. I'm relatively certain the "Nightline" piece you cite is
related to the case I've described. Whether "Nightline" got its wires
crossed, or Larry did, is unknown to me.

--Tim May

Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
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TCM
>I didn't see this particular "Nightline," so I can't be certain this is the
>same case I have been casually following for a couple of years. However, it
>sounds like the case of the guy who spent a year at Intel, stole some
>design tapes, went to work for AMD, offered them to AMD, had AMD refuse him
>and report his offer to Intel (the chip companies are very cooperative in
>these matters), and then proceeded on a bizarre course of offering the
>tapes to various foreign nations.

that's the guy.

>A comedy of sorts, and his "damage" was essentially meaningless.

the nightline segment certainly failed to convey that concept, but it
was what I raised in my post. in fact
it was all virtually touted as a great reason for new stringent intellectual
property laws by the reporter. "the fbi's hands are tied" he might have
even said.

>I don't recall _anything_ about him being planted by the FBI within Intel,
>nor can I imagine any circumstances in which the FBI would try this. So
>maybe I'm thinking of a different story.

probably the same one based on new elements that have just been discovered.
I missed the first half of the show but I think it was based on a new
book.

>Larry, you must not have been subscribed during the months when we debated
>this issue many times. There have also been numerous mentions of this since
>at least 1990, when I recall discussions of a change in mission for the
>NSA.

Klaus, I have seen many debates on this list and weren't what I was
talking about. this list has very little influence on public policy
as you might imagine <g>  ok, I will get flamed for that, but frankly
the public perception of cypherpunks is as a bunch of anarchists.

I mean public opinion pieces in newspapers, policy
journals, the washington talking-heads circuit like "meet the press",
etc-- but we will probably be getting that soon. except the topic
will be "what do we do about evil infoterrorists", instead of
"are evil infoterrorists a real problem". "does intellectual
property really exist, and if so what is it"  "do we actually need
new laws to create a new class of infocriminals"

>In the case I described, involving Intel and Pentium plans and a recent
>prison sentence, this was not the case. The FBI did not plant the thief.

sure sounds similar though. the guy on nightline went to brazil. maybe
that's all some juicy new info that you haven't gotten yet through 
any of your "blacknet" sources. heh heh. not too often I scoop the
ILF. <g>

>I'm sure an Alta Vista search would turn up this story. I don't plan to do
>it, though. I'm relatively certain the "Nightline" piece you cite is
>related to the case I've described. Whether "Nightline" got its wires
>crossed, or Larry did, is unknown to me.

yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about, Klaus (speaking of crossing
wires, my name is Vladimir, Vlad for short). don't understand your
fetish of calling people different names, does that have something
to do with that crypty-anarchy stuff or something? just curious.