Re: Responding to Pre-dawn Unannounced Ninja Raids

At 08:15 PM 7/21/96 +0000, you wrote:

>Again, I am not crusading against guns and armed self-defense, but 
>I am indeed saying that simply having a firearm at home does not insure
>safety and security. You have to go beyind having a gun and get a dog
>and/or a metal door. A good fence is also a plus, although may not 
>always be possible.

I'd certainly agree with that, but would like to add that an unloaded gun is
of no use and a gun in the nightstand or in the trunk of your car is also of
no use. For all cases other than home intrusion, the gun has to be worn -- I
recommend a shoulder holster. In the case of home intrusion, one can hope
that the intruder has no desire to be successful and permits you to get the
drop on him. Perhaps he'll slam the refrigerator door allowing you to fumble
around under your pillow for your weapon. I know of people who have walked
out of museums with paintings trailing alarm wires -- so let's hope our
intruder is an amateur and best of all is scared off by some phony security
signs, fake alarm wires, etc.

In these parts most guns seemed to be used by the temporarily depressed
teenaged children of gun owners. One kid managed to live as a vegetable
having successfully removed the source of his unhappiness -- his brain.
Tough luck. Pretty hard to aim properly when you are upset. Lesson: keep
your cool.

Now for street wear I strongly recommend a variety of loads. Probably my
favorite is a reversed semi-wadcutter. This puppy is extremely inaccurate
since it starts tumbling as it leaves the barrel. At extremely close ranges
it'll tear up some flesh and further out it'll walk nastily through outer
clothing completely wrecking it for formal wear and continue through enough
skin to be damaging. Low on kinetic energy, it will however transfer its
entire momentum where it counts. A semi-automatic will not properly feed
these, so you gotta be traditional if you are of the big clip persuasion.

A few observations: since our hog leg is shoulder-holstered we will need a
coat. Now if you want to take a piss, court-houses, airports and a few other
public buildings are out. We would feel foolish being tackled and thrown to
the floor while hunting for the restroom even if we slipped past security.
So here we are, sweating and chafing with a gun and a coat and a urinary
tract infection. Feel safe yet?
-- Llywarch Hen

Llywarch Hen wrote:
> In these parts most guns seemed to be used by the temporarily depressed
> teenaged children of gun owners. One kid managed to live as a vegetable
> having successfully removed the source of his unhappiness -- his brain.
> Tough luck. Pretty hard to aim properly when you are upset. Lesson: keep
> your cool.

I promised that when I have children I will not have guns at home. I
think that for me the danger outweighs the benefit. I would explain them
basic gun safety and how to shoot though, but would not keep guns around
them for any long period of time.

Lots of kids impulsively do things that they later regret. Like, once
one little boy hit me hard in the head with a heavy stick from behind
my back. I have never met him before, never even talked to him and never
angered him. He was 3-4 years younger than me so obviously he did not do
it because he was a bully. After he did it he was really sorry and no
one including his mom could explain why he did it. Thanks to his mom
who prevented me from beating the shit out of him.

Now, if he or myself had access to a firearm, the life now would not
be nearly as good as it is.

I've seen these sudden destructive impulses in kids many times.

	- Igor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          SANDY SANDFORT
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

C'punks,

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> Lots of kids impulsively do things that they later regret. Like, once
> one little boy hit me hard in the head with a heavy stick from behind
> my back...Now, if he or myself had access to a firearm, the life now
> would not be nearly as good as it is.
> 
> I've seen these sudden destructive impulses in kids many times.

So have I, but your assertion begs the question.  In an unarmed
society, people don't have to curb their impulse to the extent
they do in an armed one.  As a result they often don't.  The
Swiss and the Israelis seem to avoid internecine fratricide, even
though guns are everywhere.  I don't think it is any coincidence
that incivility and casual violence have increased in America in
direct proportion to the ongoing orgy of victim disarmament.

I've noticed that most civil and human interactions occur in gun
stores and rifle ranges.  I've been treated shabbily in health
food stores, but never at a gun show.  When was the last time
you heard of someone being killed at the shooting range or in a
gun store?  It's statistically infinitesimal.  Now ask yourself
the same question about liquor and convenience stores...

Powerlessness is far more a cause of impulsive rages than the
trust, responsibility and empowerment engendered by gun ownership.


 S a n d y

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sandy Sandfort wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > Lots of kids impulsively do things that they later regret. Like, once
> > one little boy hit me hard in the head with a heavy stick from behind
> > my back...Now, if he or myself had access to a firearm, the life now
> > would not be nearly as good as it is.
> > 
> > I've seen these sudden destructive impulses in kids many times.
> 
> So have I, but your assertion begs the question.  In an unarmed
> society, people don't have to curb their impulse to the extent
> they do in an armed one.  As a result they often don't.  The
> Swiss and the Israelis seem to avoid internecine fratricide, even
> though guns are everywhere.  I don't think it is any coincidence
> that incivility and casual violence have increased in America in
> direct proportion to the ongoing orgy of victim disarmament.
> 
... snip ...

> Powerlessness is far more a cause of impulsive rages than the
> trust, responsibility and empowerment engendered by gun ownership.
> 

As I said, the kid who hit me in the head with a stick was 3-4 years
younger than me. You skipped that part. Correspondently, I could beat
him easily (I did, but his mother soon interrupted me), which was
obvious to him. So he had plenty of information that would deter a
rational person. He had all the reasons to "to curb his impulse", as
you said, and he could have thought about his punishment.

Still, he hit me. He was NOT a rational person, therefore. Just as
simple as that, that particular kid who hit me should not be trusted
with a firearm at his age.

This is a simple logical conclusion.

Your arguments apply to people who do not do impulsive things. To adults
for example. 

Again, I expressed my opinion about raising my own kids. I do not
have an opinion on whether parents in general should be allowed to
give guns to their kids or not, but I would not keep a firearm  in 
my home when I have kids. I may teach them gun safety or shooting, 
but would never leave them at home with access to guns.

	- Igor.

I think it is a bad policy to say, "once I have kids in the house, I 
won't have guns there, period."

Kids do need carefully controlled exposure to firearms and their hazards. 
I refer to the proverbial lesson a father or grandfather gies the young 
laddy - shooting a watermelon or whatnot, so that the kiddy can see that 
water-filled bags of protoplasm, when shot - get the shit blown out of 
them.

No doubt, that guns need to be _positively_ secured in a household where
kids are running around. Many states have laws to that effect. Now, if we
could just get the unwashed masses to keep the sink-drain unclogger fluid,
the radiator-antifreeze fluid, and these various other commobn household
items - just as carefully secured....might reduce the workload on the
nation's poison control centers. 

Without these parent-mediated exposures to firearms safety lessons, the 
only exposure today's kids have to the subject is what they see and hear 
in the public schools and on Hollywood TV/movies.   The worst possible 
messengers.

On Sun, 21 Jul 1996, Llywarch Hen <ecgwulf@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[snip]
>I'd certainly agree with that, but would like to add that an unloaded gun is
>of no use and a gun in the nightstand or in the trunk of your car is also of
>no use. For all cases other than home intrusion, the gun has to be worn -- I
>recommend a shoulder holster. In the case of home intrusion, one can hope
>that the intruder has no desire to be successful and permits you to get the
>drop on him. Perhaps he'll slam the refrigerator door allowing you to fumble
>around under your pillow for your weapon. I know of people who have walked
>out of museums with paintings trailing alarm wires -- so let's hope our
>intruder is an amateur and best of all is scared off by some phony security
>signs, fake alarm wires, etc.

If you lock your doors and windows, forced entry generally becomes a noisy, 
somewhat time-consuming process that allows anyone not in a recreational drug 
induced stupor or coma sufficient time to pull a pistol out of their shoulder 
holster (or nightstand drawer, etc.) and pull the hammer back.  (2-3 seconds is 
all I need!)

>In these parts most guns seemed to be used by the temporarily depressed
>teenaged children of gun owners.

In the majority of cases, (although the margin is on the decline) when an armed 
homeowner confronts a burglar, the burglar runs like projectile diarrhea for the 
nearest exit, and no shots are fired.  However, these incidents are not counted 
as firearms "use", under current crime statistic collection methodology.  Many 
of these incidents are not reported, especially in areas where gun ownership is 
not approved by the authorities.  Furthermore, if your Cousin Vinnie the crack 
addict breaks into your house at 0300, attempts to rob you at knifepoint, and 
you force-feed him half a dozen jacketed hollow points for his trouble, the 
incident will usually be put in the same statistical category as the "crazed 
husband shoots wife, children, 11 neighbors, and 6 police officers" tragedies, 
even though you may never be charged with anything.  Most "studies" of crime 
statistics come from gun control advocacy groups, and are suitable primarily for 
lining the bottoms of birdcages.

>Now for street wear I strongly recommend a variety of loads. Probably my
>favorite is a reversed semi-wadcutter. This puppy is extremely inaccurate
>since it starts tumbling as it leaves the barrel. At extremely close ranges
>it'll tear up some flesh and further out it'll walk nastily through outer
>clothing completely wrecking it for formal wear and continue through enough
>skin to be damaging. Low on kinetic energy, it will however transfer its
>entire momentum where it counts. A semi-automatic will not properly feed
>these, so you gotta be traditional if you are of the big clip persuasion.

I have $10 US that says that this idiot has never fired a gun is his life.  
Furthermore, it is obvious he has no clue when it comes to bullet/target 
interaction.  A "reversed semi-wadcutter" is going to stay in its original shape 
(for the most part), which will tend to make it over-penetrate, wasting kinetic 
energy and endangering people behind the target.  Moreover, anyone who 
intentionally uses an inaccurate load is a fool--missed shots waste ammo, have 
no effect on the target, and run a significant risk of endangering innocent 
people.  A hollow point or Glaser is a much better option.

Jonathan Wienke

"1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full 
gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the 
world will follow our lead in the future!"
--Adolf Hitler

"46.  The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, 
transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the 
following statement:  I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist 
confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government."
--The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey  
http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm

1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.?

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