Re: Responding to Pre-dawn Unannounced Ninja Raids

At 6:42 AM 7/19/96, snow wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
>
>> If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing
>> all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise
>> FIRMLY on their side.. I'd have to believe that reaching for a gun
>> was the most stupid thing I could do in the entire world in this sort
>> of circumstance.
>> "You'd be right, but you'd be dead" - Dr. SNMP
>>  If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for
>> restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options.
>
>     If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for
>a weapon, and hell, at least then my kid will have enough money to go to
>whatever college she wants.

Snow is absolutely right! Surprised in the night, with no clear
identification of the entrants (and yelled "Police!!" claims are used by
home invaders, so I would not trust this anyway), a trained person will
instinctively reach for his weapon.

I again ask what was so wrong with the "You are surrounded. Come out with
your hands up." routine of years past. Instead of anonymous ninjas in
paramilitary black raiding a house and shooting anything that moves, use
some "due process."

And "due process" is what it's about. Presentation of a warrant, or at
least pretty careful announcement of identity. Blasting down doors without
presentation of an arrest or search warrant is just not the American way.

Are there circumstances that can ever justify no-warning attacks? I suppose
so, such as when clear evidence of, say, a bomb-making or terrorist cell is
invovled. Neither condition was met at at either Ruby Ridge or Waco, nor in
the vast number of midnight drug raids.

If a black-clad ninja enters my house without warning, I'll have to react
the only way I know how, by reaching for my gun. I don't have the luxury of
freezing, exposing my neck (wolf-style), and hoping that the ninjas are
"just" the police.

And very interestingly, many cops are saying the same thing. They realize
that the dangers of being killed in a firefight in the confusion of a
pre-dawn raid are not worth the meager gains. And SWAT-raiding the wrong
house has resulted in many a million-dollar judgements agasint police
departments.

--Tim May

Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software!
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
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W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
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> 
> I again ask what was so wrong with the "You are surrounded. Come out with
> your hands up." routine of years past. Instead of anonymous ninjas in
> paramilitary black raiding a house and shooting anything that moves, use
> some "due process."
> 
> And "due process" is what it's about. Presentation of a warrant, or at
> least pretty careful announcement of identity. Blasting down doors without
> presentation of an arrest or search warrant is just not the American way.
> 
> Are there circumstances that can ever justify no-warning attacks? I suppose
> so, such as when clear evidence of, say, a bomb-making or terrorist cell is
> invovled. Neither condition was met at at either Ruby Ridge or Waco, nor in
> the vast number of midnight drug raids.

"No Knock" warrants came about in effort to limit the ability of the 
suspect to dispose of evidence - another result of the "war on drugs."
 - r.w.

At 1:49 AM -0700 7/20/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
>At 6:42 AM 7/19/96, snow wrote:
>>On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
>>
>>> If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing
>>> all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise
>>> FIRMLY on their side.. I'd have to believe that reaching for a gun
>>> was the most stupid thing I could do in the entire world in this sort
>>> of circumstance.
>>> "You'd be right, but you'd be dead" - Dr. SNMP
>>>  If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for
>>> restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options.
>>
>>     If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for
>>a weapon, and hell, at least then my kid will have enough money to go to
>>whatever college she wants.
>
>Snow is absolutely right! Surprised in the night, with no clear
>identification of the entrants (and yelled "Police!!" claims are used by
>home invaders, so I would not trust this anyway), a trained person will
>instinctively reach for his weapon.
>
>I again ask what was so wrong with the "You are surrounded. Come out with
>your hands up." routine of years past.

Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying
evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line
and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before
raiding it.

David

At 1:02 PM -0700 7/20/96, JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying
>>evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line
>>and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before
>>raiding it.
>
>If tests are available that can detect trace amounts of drugs in your
>urine 30
>days after snorting cocaine, they ought to be able to detect traces of
>drugs in
>the toilet bowl/sewer pipe 5 minutes after you flush...

"Your honor, I don't know who flushed it. I have many visitors to my home."
is rather different than being caught with a large stash of cocaine on your
night table.

David

David Sternlight wrote:
> 
> "Your honor, I don't know who flushed it. I have many visitors to my home."
> is rather different than being caught with a large stash of cocaine on your
> night table.

It is not surprising that after the society decided to label 
natural economic activities (drug dealing) as crimes, it has 
to resort to unnatural methods of enforcing the unnatural
legislation.

Drug consumption (just as alcohol consumption) may be bad for the
individual consumers. But it is a matter of individual informed choice.
If the government (or society, to be more exact) decides to take away a
natural right to consume whatever one pleases, it has no choice but to
go farther and to take away more rights, for example rights to privacy
and safety in their own homes.

The problem is not the drug dealers (and not alcohol traffickers in
the thirties), the problem is lack of respect for the freedom of 
individual consumers, which transforms itself into abolition of other
rights.

Here's what milton friedman said: ``restrictions on economic freedom
inevitably affect freedom in general'' (Free to Choose). It's basically
right. It is the same as the wisdom that bad deeds that one commits
inevitably lead to more bad deeds.

	- Igor.

ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> David Sternlight wrote:
<spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam>
>
> It is not surprising that after the society decided to label
> natural economic activities (drug dealing) as crimes, it has
> to resort to unnatural methods of enforcing the unnatural
> legislation.
...

Please do not respond to anything "Dr." David Sternlight posts to this
mailing list, no matter what nonsense he says. The asshole is starved
for attension. He's just trolling for flames. Please ignore him. Thank you.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, David Sternlight wrote:
> At 1:49 AM -0700 7/20/96, Timothy C. May wrote:
> >At 6:42 AM 7/19/96, snow wrote:
> >>On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Doug Hughes wrote:
> >>> If people break into my house with the element of surprise wearing
> >>> all black in the middle of the night, they have the element of surprise
> >>>  If you don't reach for a gun, at least you have the 'chance' for
> >>> restitution on your side. If you're dead, you have no options.
> >>     If you are trained a certain way, you _are_ going to reach for
> >Snow is absolutely right! Surprised in the night, with no clear
> >identification of the entrants (and yelled "Police!!" claims are used by
> >home invaders, so I would not trust this anyway), a trained person will
> >instinctively reach for his weapon.
> Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying
> evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line
> and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before
> raiding it.

     Of course escalating a war against your own citizens makes more sense 
than legalizie the crap and letting the idiots die. 

     After all, big brudder has the right to control the substances I put 
into my boddy.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
>I suggest wiring an anti-tank mine to your door every night. If 
>ninjas break in, everyone goes to hell. No need to wake up and be
>alert in sleep -- all will be done automatically. So before that
>ninja raid you will sleep better.

A claymore mine would be much better.  It would send the "ninjas" to hell, 
without necessarily forcing you to join them.

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, David Sternlight <david@sternlight.com> wrote:
[Snip]
>Probably something to do with flushing dope down the toilet, or destroying
>evidence. Perhaps it's too much to expect them to disconnect the sewer line
>and hit your interior with a water hose and an electricity cut-off before
>raiding it.

If tests are available that can detect trace amounts of drugs in your urine 30 
days after snorting cocaine, they ought to be able to detect traces of drugs in 
the toilet bowl/sewer pipe 5 minutes after you flush...

The whole "war on drugs" has been an excuse for abrogating our Constitutional 
rights.  Much of the impetus for banning "assault weapons" and "Saturday night 
specials" is a by-product of media hype of crimes committed by drug dealers and 
gangs.  Drug crime has been used as an excuse to involve the military in law 
enforcement, (That's how the FBI got the tanks involved at Waco!) and it has 
been the primary factor in the incrased popularity of SWAT raids.
Jonathan Wienke

"1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full 
gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the 
world will follow our lead in the future!"
--Adolf Hitler

"46.  The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, 
transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the 
following statement:  I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist 
confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government."
--The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey  
http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm

1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.?

Key fingerprint =  30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6  BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB

P.S. Chesnokov = Chudov = Vulis = Sternlight = Detweiler

On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) wrote:
> >ninjas break in, everyone goes to hell. No need to wake up and be
> >alert in sleep -- all will be done automatically. So before that
> >ninja raid you will sleep better.
> A claymore mine would be much better.  It would send the "ninjas" to hell, 
> without necessarily forcing you to join them.

     You pop a claymore in a building with any substance up to the level of 
concrete re-enforced, and you _will_ be going with them.

     This is only to be used as a last resort, like calling in B-52 strikes
on your own location.

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@smoke.suba.com

JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> P.S. Chesnokov = Chudov = Vulis = Sternlight = Detweiler
> 

That's an interesting equation.

	- Igor.

ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> JonWienk@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> >
> > P.S. Chesnokov = Chudov = Vulis = Sternlight = Detweiler
> >
>
> That's an interesting equation.

Am I talking to myself? I'm definitely not talking to SternFUD.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps