Re: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children

I sent Tim's original post to a psychiatrist friend, who responded:

Ritalin is a lifesaver for a small % of children who suffer from a condition
characterized by hyperactivity and poor attention span.  These kids (usually
boys) may be bright as hell but fail in school because they can't sit still
or pay attention; they get made fun of, they behave badly, get depressed,
it's a mess.  

Some of them (milder cases) respond to behavior modification therapies which
involve training of the parents and teachers to have realistic expectation,
recognize the specific difficulties the kids have, set them goals, reward
them for achieving them, give them disincentives for misbehaving etc. Others
really do need Ritalin.  It's a relief not just for the parents and teachers
but for the kids to be able to sit still and pay attention and learn and
succeed and be liked etc.  Most of them grow out of it by their mid-teens. 
However, there are many more kids on Ritalin than there need to be; some
teachers pressure parents to get kids put on it... I know one very bright
little girl who's bored out of her mind in school, the school refuses to
move her up a grade or give her more challenging work to do, instead
complain that she is not paying attention and suggested that she be put on
Ritalin... mother was furious.  

Some of the kids who use foul language (a very small %) have Tourette's
disease, and also need medicine (a different one)... by and large the
politically correct thing is sometimes to label a kid as sick rather than
bad or spoiled, this is probably why drugs are over-used.  But we can't
throw the baby out with the bathwater!

By the way, some old people who are severely depressed after a stroke also
do well with Ritalin and don't respond to any other antidepressants...
Arun Mehta Phone +91-11-6841172, 6849103 amehta@cpsr.org
http://mahavir.doe.ernet.in/~pinaward/arun.htm
The protestors of Tiananmen Square will be back. Next time, 
the battle will be fought in cyberspace, where the students 
have the more powerful tanks...

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Arun Mehta wrote:
> Ritalin is a lifesaver for a small % of children who suffer from a condition
                               ^^^^^^^
     Key word here.            |||||||

> Ritalin... mother was furious.  
> 
> Some of the kids who use foul language (a very small %) have Tourette's
> disease, and also need medicine (a different one)... by and large the

     Bullshit. Most kids (these days) who use profanity are simply 
undisiplined louts. Yes, I use profanity today, at 28. However, I would 
NEVER have called my mother a "Fucking Asshole" under ANY circumstances, 
My father would have torn my head off. In fact if my father had caught me
speaking like that to ANYONE at 8 years of age, I would have had trouble
sitting for a couple days at least. 

     Of course my parents made sure not to talk like that around me. 

> politically correct thing is sometimes to label a kid as sick rather than
> bad or spoiled, this is probably why drugs are over-used.  But we can't
> throw the baby out with the bathwater!

     On the other hand, if only 20% of the children that are being drugged
need it, that means that we are sacrificing 80% of these children to save 
20%. 

     Drugs are supposed to be for fun, not for long term behavior 
modification. People need to learn to deal with life. 

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@crash.suba.com

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OK, so I lied.  However, I can fit some crypto relevance into this.

> On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Arun Mehta wrote:
> > Ritalin is a lifesaver for a small % of children who suffer from a condition
>                                ^^^^^^^
>      Key word here.            |||||||
> 
> > Ritalin... mother was furious.  
> > 
> > Some of the kids who use foul language (a very small %) have Tourette's
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > disease, and also need medicine (a different one)... by and large the

As long as we're talking about "key words", the "very small %" is very small
indeed.  In the next paragraph you say "most kids" which is not at all
contradictory to "a very small %".  I may have my facts mixed up, but
Tourette's disease is an illness where one tends to say things that one was
thinking but not meaning.

> 
>      Bullshit. Most kids (these days) who use profanity are simply 
> undisiplined louts. Yes, I use profanity today, at 28. However, I would 
> NEVER have called my mother a "Fucking Asshole" under ANY circumstances, 
> My father would have torn my head off. In fact if my father had caught me
> speaking like that to ANYONE at 8 years of age, I would have had trouble
> sitting for a couple days at least. 
> 
>      Of course my parents made sure not to talk like that around me. 

You are forgetting that this is a _disease_.  That means that someone cannot
be cured of it by discipline or common sense.  It's no different from diabetes
or any other disease.

> 
> > politically correct thing is sometimes to label a kid as sick rather than
> > bad or spoiled, this is probably why drugs are over-used.  But we can't
> > throw the baby out with the bathwater!
> 
>      On the other hand, if only 20% of the children that are being drugged
> need it, that means that we are sacrificing 80% of these children to save 
> 20%. 

That wasn't the point.  The point is instead of dopping every kid that doesn't
pay attention in school up with Ritalin, kids should instead be diagnosed as
having ADD before receiving Ritalin treatment.  It can be helpful for the kids
who actually have ADD.

> 
>      Drugs are supposed to be for fun, not for long term behavior 
> modification. People need to learn to deal with life. 

Someone with a disease such as bipolar disorder would disagree with you.  There
are some bipolar people who, without lithium, will end up with large wounds
caused by razor blades on the arms and legs.  Others that use sleeping pills
give them to a trusted third party (see the crypto relevance) who will prevent
them from overdosing.  Some people with ADD need Ritalin to be able to be
successful and function.  You can wax philosophical about how drugs alter a
person's personality making them a zombie, but people voluntarily take drugs
that can help them dramatically.  Some people cannot learn to "deal with life."

OK, now for the real crypto relevance.  Snow seems to be in denial about
psychological illnesses.  This is the "it will never happen to me" attitude.
Such an attitude is very common and is human nature.  However this can be
very dangerous, especially when applied to governments.  People may eventually
believe that it is OK for the government to violate the civil liberties of
those suspected of committing a crime.  After all, law abiding citizens are
never suspects in crimes.  Mandatory key escrow is perfectly all right.  The
only people that will get wiretapped are the people who are criminal types.
And even if a law abiding citizen is wiretapped, it won't matter because that
citizen unit never breaks the law.

Tyranny can effect anyone and everyone.  It's not limited to criminals.  This
is why strong crypto is necessary.

- -- Mark

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
markm@voicenet.com              | finger -l for PGP key 0xe3bf2169
http://www.voicenet.com/~markm/ | d61734f2800486ae6f79bfeb70f95348
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four.  If that
is granted, all else follows."  --George Orwell, _1984_


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On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Mark M. wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> OK, so I lied.  However, I can fit some crypto relevance into this.
> > On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Arun Mehta wrote:
> > > Ritalin is a lifesaver for a small % of children who suffer from a condition
> >      Key word here.            |||||||
> > > Ritalin... mother was furious.  
> > > Some of the kids who use foul language (a very small %) have Tourette's
> > > disease, and also need medicine (a different one)... by and large the
> As long as we're talking about "key words", the "very small %" is very small
> indeed.  In the next paragraph you say "most kids" which is not at all
> contradictory to "a very small %".  I may have my facts mixed up, but
> Tourette's disease is an illness where one tends to say things that one was
> thinking but not meaning.

     Tourettes was brought up to explain one small boys behavior towards 
his mother. He would (IIRC) call her a "fucking asshole", yet he didn't 
seem to have these sorts of problems around his father. True tourettes is 
not an emotional problem, it is _very_ rare, and the person with tourettes
does not curse at only one person. 

    Undisiplined brats do have emotional problems. Parents who are under 
the ignorant mis-apprehension that children do not need disipline are the
cause of more than a few of this societies problems. 

> > 
> >      Bullshit. Most kids (these days) who use profanity are simply 
> > undisiplined louts. Yes, I use profanity today, at 28. However, I would 
> > NEVER have called my mother a "Fucking Asshole" under ANY circumstances, 
> > My father would have torn my head off. In fact if my father had caught me
> > speaking like that to ANYONE at 8 years of age, I would have had trouble
> > sitting for a couple days at least. 
> > 
> >      Of course my parents made sure not to talk like that around me. 
> 
> You are forgetting that this is a _disease_.  That means that someone cannot
> be cured of it by discipline or common sense.  It's no different from diabetes
> or any other disease.

     It is a disease becasuse the people who get paid to diagnois and treat 
it call it a disease? 

     Is it a crime because a cop thinks it is a crime? 

     I will admit to the possibility of ADD being a "disease", but I think 
that the number of children who really have the disease is small compared 
to the number of childern recieving drugs for it. 

     15 years ago I would have been diagnoised as having ADD. I had trouble 
paying attention in class, I spent a lot of time looking out the window. I 
was a mild behavior problem. I didn't have ADD. I was simply bored by a 
system that either taught me stuff that was irrelevant (I thought so 15 
years ago, and feel so today), that taught so badly as to seem irrelevant
(like algebra & higher math) (notice SEEM, I feel much different now), or 
taught stuff that was simply wrong (I don't remember examples now, but I 
remember calling teachers on wrong info back in HS, and getting in trouble
for it).
> > 
> > > politically correct thing is sometimes to label a kid as sick rather than
> > > bad or spoiled, this is probably why drugs are over-used.  But we can't
> > > throw the baby out with the bathwater!
> > 
> >      On the other hand, if only 20% of the children that are being drugged
> > need it, that means that we are sacrificing 80% of these children to save 
> > 20%. 
> 
> That wasn't the point.  The point is instead of dopping every kid that doesn't
> pay attention in school up with Ritalin, kids should instead be diagnosed as
> having ADD before receiving Ritalin treatment.  It can be helpful for the kids
> who actually have ADD.
>

	Ok, so instead of arresting everyone who uses PGP as a child 
pornographer and throwing them in jail, we should arrest them, convict them
(after all, they must be hiding something with that crypto) and then throw
them in jail. Is that what you are saying?

	Hoz-a-bout we GIVE THE KIDS SOMETHING TO BE INTERESTED IN HUH? 

        NO, WE CAN"T DO THAT THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SOMETHING. 
 
        Look at the difference between the numbers of ADD kids in private 
schools and public schools. 

> >      Drugs are supposed to be for fun, not for long term behavior 
> > modification. People need to learn to deal with life. 
> Someone with a disease such as bipolar disorder would disagree with you.  There
> are some bipolar people who, without lithium, will end up with large wounds

      Uh.. That was a joke. Seriously tho' There is a difference between some
one who takes Lithium to even out neurochemistry, and a person who takes 
prozac to even take the edges off. 

     One is a medical condition, one is a psychological problem. 

> OK, now for the real crypto relevance.  Snow seems to be in denial about
> psychological illnesses.  This is the "it will never happen to me" attitude.

     Last time I checked the only symptom of Bipolar Manic depression I 
didn't have was suicide ideation. I have homicidal ideation. 

     I am not joking at this point. I'd be willindg to bet that I fall
VERY near the "Manic Depressive" line. 


     I just doubt that there are more than a small percentage of people out 
there who have mental illnesses that need strong drugs to combat. More people
SHOULD just learn to deal with it. I have found a couple of things that 
really help take the edge off my problems. Regular exercise is one. I 
recently started bike riding again, and I am doing 22+ miles a day. For the 
first time in about 10 years I have been sleeping a semi-regular schedule
(about 6 hours a night) I have been exercising about 3 weeks now, so we will 
see what happens. 

     This gets into what you are about to say, but in my case I am dealing
with my problems the best I can. It would be a hell of a lot easier to simple
take that little pill and have a nice calm chemical existence. It would be 
a lot easier to allow GAK and escrow. It is much better on all levels to 
deal with it yourself as much as possible. 

     I had never used PGP until today. Yes, I had D/Led it, compiled it, and 
installed it but never published a key, nor encrypted anything. An instance 
arose where someone else insisted I use it, so I figured it out. No problems.

     Part of the reason it was no problem is that I have spent a lot of 
time figuring shit out on my own, and only asking for help when I needed it,
or to help point the way. Too many people don't want that. They want all the 
questions answered for them. They like their mental fog and feel threatened
by people who don't. 

     I'd bet that a lot of these so called "ADD" kids are the ones who ask 
the hard questions in class, the ones who threaten to wake the other students
up. Can't have that. 

> Tyranny can effect anyone and everyone.  It's not limited to criminals.  This
> is why strong crypto is necessary.

     Well, something we agree on anyway. 

     Again, I am not saying that there are NO ADD kids, I know one, and he is 
a mess. However, there are many kids who are labeled ADD who aren't. I know
what Speed does to a person, Been there. Liked that (remember the Manic 
Depressive? I _LIKE_ manic.), but speed is very dangerous stuff, and 
highly addicted. Got an ex-friend to testify to that. Or he would if he 
could breath.  

Petro, Christopher C.
petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff>
snow@crash.suba.com