Flaws of Thinkers (Jefferson, Rand, Nietzsche, Voltaire, etc.)

At 10:54 PM 7/22/96, hallam@Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote:

>No, the argument is over whether a person should live by the ideals he
>preaches. I have more respect fot the likes of Kant and Russell who made
>rather more of an effort than Jefferson.
>
>The observation that history is made by rich people and written by rich
>people is not a new one. Until this century there were few countries
>where politics were open to anyone but the very wealthy. In the USA
>that is still by and large the case.
>
>Rather than attempting to excuse Jefferson it would be better to
>accept that not everything he said was valid when he said it and
>to try to engage ones brain rather than using his words as slogans.

I agree with much of what Phill says here. His original "throwaway line"
about Jefferson's slave-owning did not fully make this point. (As I see it,
this is a common danger with throwaway lines, which often look like
dismissive insults.)

The flaws of leaders and thinkers are well-known. From from what I've read,
Voltaire was a real cad. And my favorite aphorist/philosopher, Nietzsche,
had his share of bigoted views. And he was apparently not at all a
"superman" specimen.

But who cares? The ideas of a person are somewhat separable from their
quirks as persons. If we demand perfection from all thinkers--assuming
perfection could ever be defined and agreed upon--we'd likely have far
fewer thinkers to study.

(Phill also mentions Rand. She was about as deeply flawed an individual,
especially in terms of treatment of her supporters, as one can imagine.
She, for example, insisted that her followers smoke, as smoking is (she
claimed) proof of Man's dominance over nature. However, many of her ideas
were very influential.)

I rather suspect the U.S. would have had a more consistent moral stance if
a condition for a state joining the Union had been the freeing of all
slaves. Of course, giving womyn the vote would have been too much to ask
for.

(And there were many violations of the rights of Indians, including
land-use rights and treaties, which did little to polish the reputation of
the U.S. for adhering to its own stated principles.)


--Tim May


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 An entity calling itself tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) probably
 wrote something like:
>
> (Phill also mentions Rand. She was about as deeply flawed an individual,
> especially in terms of treatment of her supporters, as one can imagine.
> She, for example, insisted that her followers smoke, as smoking is (she
> claimed) proof of Man's dominance over nature. However, many of her ideas
> were very influential.)


I know a lot about Rand, and about her deep flaws as an
individual, especially in terms of treatment of her supporters,
but this is the first I've heard of this one.  Perhaps Tim is
thinking of a play by Murray Rothbard called "Mozart Was a Red" 
in which the Ayn Rand caricature insists that her followers 
smoke.


As for smoking being "proof" of man's dominance over nature,
Rand _did_ believe that in the sense of "demonstration" or
"symbol" but she did not believe that in the rigorous sense of
"proof".


Regards,

Bryce




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Did Ayn Rand have any good sexual peccedillos?

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 An entity calling itself something like Alan Horowitz <alanh@infi.net>
 might have been overheard muttering something along the lines of:
>
> Did Ayn Rand have any good sexual peccedillos?


Some of her female characters like to have rape fantasies 
enacted on the very border of consent.  She had an affair with 
her chief student with the knowledge and presumably consent of 
both of their respective spouses.  She thought that a woman who
wanted to be President of the U.S. and rule over men would 
become a sexless, embittered spinster because she couldn't 
enjoy being dominated.  :-)


I would call those "good ones", but YMMV.  :-)


This is making me feel kind of sleazy.  For what it is worth 
I think that Rand has some of the best ideas in philosophy, and
furthermore presented them in a (more or less) integrated system
which has profoundly useful applications to both theoretical
philosophy and everyday life, not to mention dramatically 
publicizing and popularizing philosophical ideas in a social and
political context.


Rand's ideas are wildly under-rated by most serious thinkers and
wildly over-rated by most of her followers.  It is a shame that 
her acid polemics, kooky tangents, and personality cult have
distracted most people from her valuable insights.


Which brings us back to the original subject of this thread,
although nowhere close to the original topic of this forum.


Regards,

Bryce

#include <stddisclaimer.h> /* speaking for myself, not for
Digicash at this time. */




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