Re: Tolerance (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 07:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com>
> Subject: Re: Tolerance (fwd)

> Here I have to respectfully disagree, totally, with Jim.  One
> does not have to "reserve" one's rights.  They are inherent and
> my be exercised pretty much at will (I say "pretty much" because
> there are situations where "implied contract" applies).

Exactly! Stating a list is 'public' is an inherent contract between the list
provider and the subscriber with certain expectations on both parties part.
The list provider expects no illegal activity to take place such that they
are placed in jeopardy and the subscriber expects to recieve access to a
public (ie not regulated by a third party other than themselves and the
members en toto) list. Claiming the right to throw somebody off for any
reason other than illegal activity nullifies the claim of 'public'.

> A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open
> to the public.

I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant, mall, etc. is
considered public. In Texas such places make it clear that they are private
places and that they reserve the right to refuse service and/or ask you to
leave the premises.

Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using public monies.

> Nevertheless, without first "reserving the right"
> to do so, the owners may tell you to leave if they don't like 
> the way you sound, look or smell. 

Because they ain't any more public than my house is on Wednesday nites when
I have it open to folks. I assure you that if somebody were to show up
smelling or filthy they would be asked to leave and if they refused I would
call a police officer and press trespass charges.

> Criminal activity is not
> required legally nor ethically.  Your ejection may, in fact, be
> totally arbitrary.  I don't see a privately maintained, "public"
> list as being philosophically any different.

The only way a police officer can expell you from a public place other than
for criminal behaviour is if the municipality passes ordinances regarding
access (ie open from 7-10 for example in the case of city parks here in
Austin) which must apply to ALL citizens equaly not just the vagabonds (I
have been thrown out of parks on many occassions and I assure I don't look
like a street bum even when I was living on the street in the early 80's - 
for grins I might add).


                                                 Jim Choate

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                          SANDY SANDFORT
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C'punks,

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Jim Choate wrote:

> Stating a list is 'public' is an inherent contract between the list
> provider and the subscriber with certain expectations on both parties part.
> The list provider expects no illegal activity to take place such that they
> are placed in jeopardy and the subscriber expects to recieve access to a
> public (ie not regulated by a third party other than themselves and the
> members en toto) list. Claiming the right to throw somebody off for any
> reason other than illegal activity nullifies the claim of 'public'.

A.  Where does Jim get the terms of the contract he implies from
    the simple word "public"?  As far as I can see, he simply made
    it up from whole cloth.  Interesting, but totally without any
    legal basis.
B.  I'm unaware that the Cypherpunks list has ever been advertised
    as "public" by the list owner.
C.  Combining A & B, I know of know instance where the owners of
    the Cypherpunks list ever made any indication that they were
    adhearing to the Byzantine interpretation of contract law as
    suggested by Jim.  (It sure doesn't comport to what I learned
    in my Contracts classes.)

> > A restaurant or bookstore is a public place in that it is open
> > to the public.
> 
> I know of no state in the union where a bookstore, restaurant,
> mall, etc. is considered public.

Actually, it's the law in ALL states in the union since the Public 
Accomidations Act was enacted some time in the '60s (with the
possible exception of Texas, I guess).

> Legaly a public place is someplace which is operated using
> public monies.

Like the Cypherpunks list?  Citation, please.

The problem with Jim is not that he doesn't know anything, but
rather that he knows so many things that aren't true.  (But I
would not favor enforcing the state granted monopoly on the
practice of law if Jim wants to hang out his shingle.  If he can
get someone to pay him for legal advice, more power to him, but 
/caveat emptor/.)


 S a n d y

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