Re: Internal Passports

At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote:

>I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country
>has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking....

A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If
somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be
under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport.


-- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.
   Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November.
   Vote Harry Browne for President.

shamrock@netcom.com (Lucky Green) writes:

> At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote:
>
> >I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country
> >has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking....
>
> A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If
> somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be
> under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport.

This reminds me how many years ago (I think this was under Reagan, or maybe
even Carter) I went to U.S.V.I without any papers at all, not realizing that
it's "abroad". When the time came for me to get back, I was shocked to see
some security people checking the papers of the people getting on the plane
to N.Y. I explained the situation and they let me in with no papers.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

I had the same problems when I was working at Xerox in Webster, NY. 
Supermarkets just plain didn't want to accept my passport as valid ID.

More recently, I attended an IEEE conference at MITRE in Virginia. To 
enter the building, they required you to fill out a form listing your 
SSN. The forms were taped to the guard's desk, in full view of anyone who 
was curious.

I was horrified and gave a random number.

A friend who was with me (who in fact is on cypherpunks) dutifully gave
her correct SSN. Oh, and they wanted photo ID. I offered press
credentials. Unfortunately for the lackey, it didn't have any sort of
serial or ID number on it he could record.

-Declan



On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Lucky Green wrote:

> At 15:48 8/4/96, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> >I wonder if they'll still accept an American passport; the country
> >has obviously been taken over by Pod People while we weren't looking....
> 
> A US passport is not considered valid ID by the State of Oregon. If
> somebody here doesn't belive this, send someone who looks like he might be
> under 21 into any liquor store in Oregon with just an US passport.
> 
> 
> -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.
>    Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November.
>    Vote Harry Browne for President.
> 
> 


// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> I had the same problems when I was working at Xerox in Webster, NY. 
> Supermarkets just plain didn't want to accept my passport as valid ID.
> 
> More recently, I attended an IEEE conference at MITRE in Virginia. To 
> enter the building, they required you to fill out a form listing your 
> SSN. The forms were taped to the guard's desk, in full view of anyone who 
> was curious.
> 
> I was horrified and gave a random number.

You should always be horrified, and always give a random number.

--
I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist
unicorn@schloss.li

Black Unicorn wrote:
> 
[ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ]
> > I was horrified and gave a random number.
> 
> You should always be horrified, and always give a random number.

Well, it would be nice if it was that easy.  You (legally) need to give
the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS,
right?  Such as your employer.  But it's not always clear who else needs
it.  Is it needed to allow someone to do a credit check on you?  Is it
needed to get a driver's license?  (The fine print on the DMV forms says
"yes".)  Is it necessary to make use of employer-sponsored medical
insurance?  (I suspect that the answer to this one is "no", except for
the fact that when my employer set up my medical insurance they let the
insurance company use my SSN as my insurance-related-ID-number.  But in
any event, my dentist told me, "if you don't give it to us, they won't
pay.")

I don't like the idea of having a universal ID number, but neither do I
like the idea of having to go to extreme lengths to make the "right
thing" happen for something where my effort will have only moral impact,
not material.

If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way?
(Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid
telemarketing scum...)

-- 
Jamie Zawinski    jwz@netscape.com   http://www.netscape.com/people/jwz/
``A signature isn't a return address, it is the ASCII equivalent of a
  black velvet clown painting; it's a rectangle of carets surrounding
  a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who.''
                                                         -- Chris Maeda

Jamie Zawinski wrote:

> If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way?
> (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid
> telemarketing scum...)

The original SSN was never intended to be used as a form of 
identification, or so the government claimed.  You may request
from the government a taxpayer ID number, which you may then use
in lieu of your SSN for identification purposes, if you desire
to hold the government to its original promise. 

Of course, using a Taxpayer ID everywhere provides you with no more
anonymity than using an SSN everywhere.  Such is life. 

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     mpd@netcom.com     $    via Finger.                      $

On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Jamie Zawinski wrote:

> Black Unicorn wrote:
> > 
> [ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ]
> > > I was horrified and gave a random number.
> > 
> > You should always be horrified, and always give a random number.
> 
> Well, it would be nice if it was that easy.  You (legally) need to give
> the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS,
> right?  Such as your employer.  But it's not always clear who else needs
> it.  Is it needed to allow someone to do a credit check on you?  Is it
> needed to get a driver's license?  (The fine print on the DMV forms says
> "yes".)  Is it necessary to make use of employer-sponsored medical
> insurance?  (I suspect that the answer to this one is "no", except for
> the fact that when my employer set up my medical insurance they let the
> insurance company use my SSN as my insurance-related-ID-number.  But in
> any event, my dentist told me, "if you don't give it to us, they won't
> pay.")
> 
> I don't like the idea of having a universal ID number, but neither do I
> like the idea of having to go to extreme lengths to make the "right
> thing" happen for something where my effort will have only moral impact,
> not material.
> 
> If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way?
> (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid
> telemarketing scum...)

I explained a good deal of this in a post I made some time ago where I
related the tale of a friend who had simply made up a number and used it
since age 17.

The reality is that not much will be done, aside some form letters from
the IRS indicating that you seem to be using the wrong number, and won't
you please change it. 

I suppose that you might have to give it to the IRS if you want a refund,
but why to your employer?  Why not give your employer the wrong number
and correct it directly to the IRS when the IRS complains?

Ditto for your bank.

Almost no one can actually get the number related to your name, only
verify if the number you are using has been issued.

I am continually amazed at the number of people who surrender this number
simply because someone tells them that they have to or the sky will fall
in.

Bottom line, if someone besides the IRS or the SS people have your
name/number relation, it is because YOU gave it to them.

> 
> -- 
> Jamie Zawinski    jwz@netscape.com   http://www.netscape.com/people/jwz/
> ``A signature isn't a return address, it is the ASCII equivalent of a
>   black velvet clown painting; it's a rectangle of carets surrounding
>   a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like Heinlein or Dr. Who.''
>                                                          -- Chris Maeda
> 

--
I hate lightning - finger for public key - Vote Monarchist
unicorn@schloss.li

Furthermore, one's ten years of required FICA contributions for 
eligibility to collect Social Security or Disability, are a statutory 
proviso, not an administgrative "favor" that the SS Administration grants us.

That is to say, even if their computer doesn't show you as having enough 
contributions to be eligible, you are still entitled to make your own 
independent showing of the fact that you made the payments. It is NOT 
required that they have been "credited" to your account all along.

There are many many many ways to document for posterity, payment of 
funds. We don't have to depend upon subversive foreign nationals who 
think they are hot shit because they work at building bigger and 
better computer surveillance-state systems.